New telepathy test, the sequel.

From my personal point of view, the most wonderful outcome would be serious evidence that Michel H is telepathic. I suppose we aren’t ever going to have a test that provides serious evidence, but I do find the question of how to design such a test interesting. (This isn’t the area of statistics I know, so it’s an opportunity for me to learn something.)

One problem is that Michel feels there is no reason for participants to tell the truth. Here’s an idea for an incentive. We put together a modest pool of money. (I’d be happy to kick in ten bucks. Perhaps Loss Leader would hold the money.) After the test, one name is drawn from those who have submitted the correct answer and that person takes the whole pot. That gives participants an incentive to try hard to hear Michel and to tell the truth.

Another problem is that Michel doesn’t want to do a real test. How about a second pot (I’m good for another $10.) that goes to Michel if the test is successful and goes to charity otherwise.

Any thoughts? Michel?


Honestly, I think this is a bad idea. The OP has stated many times that he hears voices in his head telling him to kill himself, it is clear that he will accept no evidence against his beliefs but will continue to twist responses to fit his own narratives. I really don't see how continued engagement in this circus benefits anyone, least of all the poster.
 
No, no, questions are just listed chronologically when you choose the Answer option...

Do you know this to be the case, or are you guessing this to be the case because it seems true enough at times? Knowing how some algorithm works because it has been described to you by its creators is one thing. Inferring how it must work based on limited observation of its outputs may be useful and informative, but it cannot generate expectations that rise much higher than speculation.

...next to "Customize feed"

The existence of a method to customize your feed should tip you off that the algorithms that generates the various feeds are likely to be more complex than just a chronological dump of recent questions submitted by everyone. Further, the existence of a point system for reward and punishment among contributors should also a tip. The existence of a number of parameters ostensibly governing the collection and presentation of data should suggest the use of a highly-parameterized algorithm. Further, since at least one of the parameters is a function of which user is viewing a data set, shouldn't that suggest that different users see different content?

Do you see that all questions are just listed chronologically?

How are you able to determine that "all questions" are being listed? Wouldn't that require you to know what questions are submitted by everyone using the service? That the questions you see are listed in chronological order does not mean they are not also being automatically filtered according to some criteria that may not be evident to you by merely observing a subset of results.

Even Loss Leader's approach to discovering the operation of the algorithm could be criticized for being limited to black-box inference. But it improves markedly over your approach in at least two ways: it is open to the hypothesis that the algorithms at work are arbitrarily complex, and it conducts a systematic survey of the outputs with the likely parameters in mind.

There may exist also...

Speculation.

You speculate a lot. And you allow your speculation to have the power of fact. More importantly, you speculate on points that could be answered instead by collecting data or conducting an experiment. Your reluctance to discover what the real world actually is, and to rely instead on what you suppose or desire it to be, does not bode well for the strength of your conclusions or faith in the methods you're using. Also, when you say that things happen "without explanation," it weakens your case when you demonstrate a systematic unwillingness to discover the explanation.

This is actually very annoying and serious because many potential answerers won't see your question any longer...

If a user's feed is customizable in any meaningful way, this means the free service you're trying to use in order to engage with potential research subjects does not guarantee that your question will be seen by everyone, or even by anyone. However "serious" you feel this is, it should be clear that it is a poor service to use for scientific research that requires a controlled subject pool.

A few years ago, questions were also strangely "oscillating", sometimes showing up, sometimes not, but this odd behavior seems to have stopped now.

Is that observation not more parsimoniously answered by the hypothesis that a complex set of algorithms is at work, and that Yahoo continuously tinkers with its algorithm for generating the various lists of questions? The algorithms by which social media presents its content have been a topic of public conversation for quite some time now. Content providers and content mediators have had to answer for the effects of the increasing sophistication of their algorithms, their sometime unpredictable behavior, and the effects that behavior has had on the user experience.

What perplexes us here is your abject unwillingness to discover what really causes the service to behave contrary to your expectations. You simply declare that it should behave a certain way and then speculatively attribute departures from that expectation to the interference of nefarious forces.

Taking a step back, I think we can agree that Yahoo Answers is clearly not the right place to conduct the research you want to do. Whether the appearance of your questions is governed by a capricious algorithm or by the backroom machinations of a frightful elite is ultimately moot. You cannot reach a suitable subject pool via that service, so the question then arises why you insist on continuing to use it if your goal is to obtain evidence to test whether you are telepathic.

And the inevitable hypothesis is that you're not really interested in a true test. You've decided to stick with a service that provides you a messy enough subject pool ostensibly to justify an exercise whereby you filter the responses after the fact. You've stuck with a service that you accuse of censoring you, perhaps so that you can argue in the alternative that you're being persecuted for your beliefs. This latter hypothesis is especially acute when we consider also why you're here at this forum trying so very hard to be victimized by skeptics, and arguing that others similarly situated are also being so victimized. It all smacks of trying to generate experiences that reinforce things you already believe: i.e., that you're telepathic and that the rest of the world fears your powers.

Unfortunate forays into disallowed subjects aside, you've received quite helpful information here on how to organize experiments to test the claims you say you want tested. You simply dismiss them out of hand and continue along a course likely intended to do something very different. As such I don't expect you'll be indulged for very much longer.
 
From my personal point of view, the most wonderful outcome would be serious evidence that Michel H is telepathic.

Indeed. A commonly misplaced criticism of the skeptical approach is that skeptics are ideologically opposed in principle to claims of the paranormal or supernatural. This is emphatically not true. Skeptics would be delighted to discover credible evidence of such things as telepathy, telekenesis, life after death, reincarnation, and so forth. Even skeptics would find it occasionally helpful, for example, to read their spouses' minds instead of trying to guess their way through conflict resolution. Even skeptics are at times confronted with the prospect of mortality. Even in the purest scientific sense, valid proof of telepathy would allow us to be witnesses to a groundbreaking discovery of something that has been elusive for centuries. Such opportunities rarely arise more than once in a scientist's life.

No, skeptics aren't opposed to the notion of telepathy. They oppose the misuse of science to deceive people into thinking they or someone else is telepathic when the evidence doesn't support that. Critics of skepticism mistake the objection over the abuse of method for objection to the implications of the question being tested. And, of course, we object to deception in general. We advocate critical thinking because the most practical benefit of thinking critically is defending oneself against the efforts of others to injure, defraud, or control. Naturally we oppose people who knowingly use trickery to pretend to have paranormal gifts and thereby defraud gullible, innocent people. I don't see that Michel is doing anything like that, so let's be clear on that point. But he is, to some degree, being inconsequentially deceptive.

I suppose we aren’t ever going to have a test that provides serious evidence, but I do find the question of how to design such a test interesting. (This isn’t the area of statistics I know, so it’s an opportunity for me to learn something.)

Statistical models certainly play a role, but I find the protocol design more instructive on these points, especially since various claimants to gifts such as telepathy and telekinesis have been remarkably successful at fooling even hardened scientists with relatively simple stage magic or common mentalist tricks.

For example, in another thread we spoke of a practitioner who made oil appear on his hands. Palming capsules filled with various liquids so that they can seemingly appear out of nowhere is a staple of stage magic, and of basic stagecraft when we need to make blood appear as if from a wound. Simple ways to do this include holding the capsule between the bases of two fingers, holding the capsule against the palm with the tip of a finger, and holding it between the meaty lobes of the palm. Any competent magician can show you how to do this. Most actors can do it competently with only a little practice. With the aid of some Latex and some higher-end stage makeup techniques, I can arrange for a conformal sachet to supply fluid to your hand on command such that the pre-effect appearance is nearly undetectable even if I am holding the practitioner's hands in my own and performing a close visual inspection.

A protocol to preclude this might, for example, including the experimenter placing gloves on the claimant's hands, which have been previously carefully inspected for hidden packets of oil. Similarly, the gloves will have been secured against tampering and inspected by the experimenter. if the claim is that the oil is produced spontaneously in the hands, then the claimant should be able to generate it with the gloves in place. The gloves hamper the ability to do it by the customary stage magic methods.

Protocols to detect telepathy have to preclude all the customary -- and extremely clever -- ways that previous claimants have appeared to succeed. This can be very difficult. The example I commonly cite is the one in which Penn and Teller purported to be able to direct the subject to where a playing card had been hidden on the set, the identify of the card having been named previously, arbitrarily by the subject. P&T revealed that the secret of the trick is to hide all 52 cards in different places on the set and memorize where each was. Protocols to eliminate such things as uncommon feats of memory are difficult to devise.

One problem is that Michel feels there is no reason for participants to tell the truth.

He thinks we don't want to see him succeed. Instead, we don't want to see him cheat. What a skeptic wants most out of something like this is good data. Skepticism means following the data wherever they lead. Our objection against Michel's approach is not that he got an answer that appeared to confirm telepathy, but that he obviously cheated to get it. it's the cheating, not the truth value of the answer, that matters.

Then of course there is the inevitable rhetoric when tests fail. Claimants to the Randi prize and similar contests have complained that suitable protocols are, instead, fixed to deny them success. Remarkable feats that occur only when the claimant controls the circumstances of the test seem to be de rigueur. It seems to be important to sustain the belief that skeptics will cheat to make tests fail when they are acting to prevent claimants from cheating to make the test succeed.
 
The OP has stated many times that he hears voices in his head telling him to kill himself, it is clear that he will accept no evidence against his beliefs but will continue to twist responses to fit his own narratives.

And it's conceivable his own narrative isn't unreasonable from his point of view. Assume you actually do hear voices, for whatever reason and directing you to do whatever thing. You can't simply deny that the voices are there, because that would be to deny data as you see it. So you have to explain the voices in some way. If you believe you have carefully eliminated all natural possibilities by observing that there's no one around you talking to you, then you start reaching for supernatural causes like telepathy, spirits, or aliens. And that seems reasonable, if highly improbable, because it's all that remains. It's not that claimants of this sort don't recognize that what they're claiming is very improbable. It's that it has to be considered because everything else is impossible.

I really don't see how continued engagement in this circus benefits anyone, least of all the poster.

Agreed.
 
Indeed. A commonly misplaced criticism of the skeptical approach is that skeptics are ideologically opposed in principle to claims of the paranormal or supernatural. This is emphatically not true. Skeptics would be delighted to discover credible evidence of such things as telepathy, telekenesis, life after death, reincarnation, and so forth. Even skeptics would find it occasionally helpful, for example, to read their spouses' minds instead of trying to guess their way through conflict resolution. Even skeptics are at times confronted with the prospect of mortality. Even in the purest scientific sense, valid proof of telepathy would allow us to be witnesses to a groundbreaking discovery of something that has been elusive for centuries. Such opportunities rarely arise more than once in a scientist's life.

No, skeptics aren't opposed to the notion of telepathy. They oppose the misuse of science to deceive people into thinking they or someone else is telepathic when the evidence doesn't support that. Critics of skepticism mistake the objection over the abuse of method for objection to the implications of the question being tested. And, of course, we object to deception in general. We advocate critical thinking because the most practical benefit of thinking critically is defending oneself against the efforts of others to injure, defraud, or control. Naturally we oppose people who knowingly use trickery to pretend to have paranormal gifts and thereby defraud gullible, innocent people. I don't see that Michel is doing anything like that, so let's be clear on that point. But he is, to some degree, being inconsequentially deceptive.



Statistical models certainly play a role, but I find the protocol design more instructive on these points, especially since various claimants to gifts such as telepathy and telekinesis have been remarkably successful at fooling even hardened scientists with relatively simple stage magic or common mentalist tricks.

For example, in another thread we spoke of a practitioner who made oil appear on his hands. Palming capsules filled with various liquids so that they can seemingly appear out of nowhere is a staple of stage magic, and of basic stagecraft when we need to make blood appear as if from a wound. Simple ways to do this include holding the capsule between the bases of two fingers, holding the capsule against the palm with the tip of a finger, and holding it between the meaty lobes of the palm. Any competent magician can show you how to do this. Most actors can do it competently with only a little practice. With the aid of some Latex and some higher-end stage makeup techniques, I can arrange for a conformal sachet to supply fluid to your hand on command such that the pre-effect appearance is nearly undetectable even if I am holding the practitioner's hands in my own and performing a close visual inspection.

A protocol to preclude this might, for example, including the experimenter placing gloves on the claimant's hands, which have been previously carefully inspected for hidden packets of oil. Similarly, the gloves will have been secured against tampering and inspected by the experimenter. if the claim is that the oil is produced spontaneously in the hands, then the claimant should be able to generate it with the gloves in place. The gloves hamper the ability to do it by the customary stage magic methods.

Protocols to detect telepathy have to preclude all the customary -- and extremely clever -- ways that previous claimants have appeared to succeed. This can be very difficult. The example I commonly cite is the one in which Penn and Teller purported to be able to direct the subject to where a playing card had been hidden on the set, the identify of the card having been named previously, arbitrarily by the subject. P&T revealed that the secret of the trick is to hide all 52 cards in different places on the set and memorize where each was. Protocols to eliminate such things as uncommon feats of memory are difficult to devise.



He thinks we don't want to see him succeed. Instead, we don't want to see him cheat. What a skeptic wants most out of something like this is good data. Skepticism means following the data wherever they lead. Our objection against Michel's approach is not that he got an answer that appeared to confirm telepathy, but that he obviously cheated to get it. it's the cheating, not the truth value of the answer, that matters.

Then of course there is the inevitable rhetoric when tests fail. Claimants to the Randi prize and similar contests have complained that suitable protocols are, instead, fixed to deny them success. Remarkable feats that occur only when the claimant controls the circumstances of the test seem to be de rigueur. It seems to be important to sustain the belief that skeptics will cheat to make tests fail when they are acting to prevent claimants from cheating to make the test succeed.

So well said!

If Michel doesn’t engage on a serious test, then I suppose I have to agree with the posters suggesting that the kindest thing to do is to disengage.
 
And it's conceivable his own narrative isn't unreasonable from his point of view. Assume you actually do hear voices, for whatever reason and directing you to do whatever thing. You can't simply deny that the voices are there, because that would be to deny data as you see it. So you have to explain the voices in some way. If you believe you have carefully eliminated all natural possibilities by observing that there's no one around you talking to you, then you start reaching for supernatural causes like telepathy, spirits, or aliens. And that seems reasonable, if highly improbable, because it's all that remains. It's not that claimants of this sort don't recognize that what they're claiming is very improbable. It's that it has to be considered because everything else is impossible.


I don't disagree, I'm just concerned that engagement, however well intentioned is feeding a unhealthy delusion.
 
But sabotaging your test wouldn't stop your ability to influence the world.

If the American authorities were concerned about you influencing the world they have much more effective methods to stop you influencing the world than making a test of yours harder to find.
I have no real evidence indicating that "American authorities" are involved in any way in the disappearance of my test question in the chronological question list (it is not the first time this has happened). I suppose it is possible but I have no evidence. Because I am not a famous person, what I may say tends to attract less attention.

Besides, as a citizen, I am protected by freedom of speech laws. I could be targeted if I was trying to incite terrorism or violence, but I am not. Such behavior would also violate Rule 1 of the Membership Agreement of this forum (as you know).
 
Yes, I see that in the Parapsychology Answer option, questions are listed chronologically. However, I also see that the Answer option shows far, far fewer questions than the Discover option. In Parapsychology, the Answer tab shows only seven questions.
Yes, that's right, this is the list of all questions which have been asked in the last three months (no complicated algorithm required), and my latest test question is not in that list (anomaly).
Link: https://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index?sid=396547172
My question (not in the list): https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20200104181250AA43dsx
In Polls & Surveys, both the Discover and the Answer tabs show hundreds of questions. The Answer tab is appears to be in chronological order. Your question (about 21 hours ago) doesn't seem to appear, though it would be well over a hundred down chronologically.
No, that's not true. My question (from one day ago) is still there. You'll see it if you scroll down the page long enough.
Link: https://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index?sid=396546444
My question (in the list): https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20200104183837AA6iinm
 
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From my personal point of view, the most wonderful outcome would be serious evidence that Michel H is telepathic. I suppose we aren’t ever going to have a test that provides serious evidence, but I do find the question of how to design such a test interesting. (This isn’t the area of statistics I know, so it’s an opportunity for me to learn something.)

One problem is that Michel feels there is no reason for participants to tell the truth. Here’s an idea for an incentive. We put together a modest pool of money. (I’d be happy to kick in ten bucks. Perhaps Loss Leader would hold the money.) After the test, one name is drawn from those who have submitted the correct answer and that person takes the whole pot. That gives participants an incentive to try hard to hear Michel and to tell the truth.

Another problem is that Michel doesn’t want to do a real test. How about a second pot (I’m good for another $10.) that goes to Michel if the test is successful and goes to charity otherwise.

Any thoughts? Michel?
Your idea is perhaps interesting, Startz, though I believe the idea my tests are not rigorous is actually "fake news", which, however, seems to be popular on this forum, and repeated many times. I offer one dollar to any member of this forum who participates in my current test, with a maximum of twenty dollars.

The test may be found here: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20200104181250AA43dsx.
 
Your idea is perhaps interesting, Startz, though I believe the idea my tests are not rigorous is actually "fake news", which, however, seems to be popular on this forum, and repeated many times. I offer one dollar to any member of this forum who participates in my current test, with a maximum of twenty dollars.

I find the offer of $10 more credible than your offer of $1.
 
I believe the idea my tests are not rigorous is actually "fake news", which, however, seems to be popular on this forum...

No. You've been told in great detail what's wrong with your attempts to conduct science. Your errors range from blatant cheating -- post hoc rationalization -- to elementary misunderstanding of how scientific questions are formulated (e.g., circular reasoning) and obvious errors in methodology and assumption. Instead of addressing any of them, you simply insist that you are a competent, credentialed scientist. Moreover, you attribute the consequences of your poor methods to allegations of nefarious forces trying to sabotage you. No one is buying the bluff.
 
I find the offer of $10 more credible than your offer of $1.
OK, another amount can perhaps be negotiated, for example $5 for a correct answer, and $2 for an incorrect one (note that these amounts are for just one answer). I am skeptical that this will work, though. The truth is probably that, deep inside yourself, most of you are actually adversaries of the truth in telepathy, and you know it.
 
OK, another amount can perhaps be negotiated, for example $5 for a correct answer, and $2 for an incorrect one (note that these amounts are for just one answer). I am skeptical that this will work, though. The truth is probably that, deep inside yourself, most of you are actually adversaries of the truth in telepathy, and you know it.

I don't find this post to be credible. You've equated a monetary return with the honesty of the people who you would like to have participate in a test and have poisoned the well.
 
The truth is probably that, deep inside yourself, most of you are actually adversaries of the truth in telepathy, and you know it.

No. We're not anti-telepathy. We're anti-cheating. You want to cheat, and you've been caught cheating previously. We're suggesting ways you can do your experiment so as to avoid the possibility or appearance of cheating. When you respond to that by accusing your critics of being secretly biased against you, you reveal yourself to be in no way a scientist.
 
I don't find this post to be credible. You've equated a monetary return with the honesty of the people who you would like to have participate in a test and have poisoned the well.
Note (to avoid any possible misunderstanding) that I am not offering money for saying something like:"Yes, Michel H, I admit that you are telepathic, I sometimes have the impression of hearing your thoughts, in a unusual (and often rejected) telepathic phenomenon (at least, if such a thing can be called "thoughts")".

I am ready to give some money (following Startz' suggestion) to those who have the courage to participate in this test, and the talent to succeed:
... I do indeed have ESP, and know for a fact that he wrote 2!
I am seeing a 4 very clearly. It's almost as though I had written it myself.
.
 
...and the talent to succeed:

And this is why you're not a scientist. Success in a scientific experiment means you collected a clean set of data with no intervening or confounding effects, in a volume sufficient to fit the statistical model of assurance -- and that such data are dispositive of the hypothesis under test, however that disposition looks like. You're defining success as an outcome that conforms to your predetermined belief. And now you're taking steps to stack the data deck in your favor, just as you used "credibility" tests post hoc in your prior experiment to reject data you didn't like.
 
You're defining success as an outcome that conforms to your predetermined belief.
No, I am defining success in a telepathy experiment in the usual way. For example, if I wrote "1" on my piece of paper, and I tell you that I wrote 1, 2, 3 or 4, you can achieve success by telling me I wrote "1" (same thing for another sender and another percipient, of course).

Success in Science does not mean displaying extreme, systematic and unreasonable aggressivity. Success in Science also doesn't mean using unnecessarily a lot of very complicated words, that some people may find difficult to understand (this is pedantry, as far as I know).
 
No, I am defining success in a telepathy experiment in the usual way. For example, if I wrote "1" on my piece of paper, and I tell you that I wrote 1, 2, 3 or 4, you can achieve success by telling me I wrote "1" (same thing for another sender and another percipient, of course).

All right, I buy the notion that "success" in terms of experiment design means the receiver and the sender achieved a match or correct guess, and that this is not a predispositional terminology. What I find strange, however, is that your participation incentive favors the outcome you desire. Why not simply offer the same incentive for serious participation, regardless of the outcome? When you say that you want people who have "the talent to succeed," you telegraph what sort of outcome you want from participants.

Success in Science does not mean displaying extreme, systematic and unreasonable aggressivity.

You haven't shown in any way that criticism against you is extreme or unreasonable. In fact, you seem to define any opposition to your claims as some sort of persecution. As for systematic -- yes, proper science applies systematic methods to evaluating protocols and controls. You eschew any sort of systematic review of your methods. Why is that? What are you trying to hide?

Success in Science also doesn't mean using unnecessarily a lot of very complicated words, that some people may find difficult to understand (this is pedantry, as far as I know).

Cry me a river. I thought you were a PhD. Tell me what I need to dumb down for you and I'll repeat it again using small words.
 
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All right, I buy the notion that "success" in terms of experiment design means the receiver and the sender achieved a match or correct guess, and that this is not a predispositional terminology. What I find strange, however, is that your participation incentive favors the outcome you desire. Why not simply offer the same incentive for serious participation, regardless of the outcome? When you say that you want people who have "the talent to succeed," you telegraph what sort of outcome you want from participants.
No, I think you're wrong again. In a telepathy experiment, it is normal to encourage success, accuracy in the guesses. You want to avoid random, chance results. This does not violate any principle of scientific objectivity.

What would be dishonest would be for example to fake the results, and to claim for example that 75% answered correctly when in reality only 25% answered correctly. Or, at a more delicate level in a telepathy experiment, that an obviously absurd answer is credible.

At the end of the experiment, after you've done all you could to motivate your participants, you would normally calculate a p-value (if your sample is large enough). Then, if the hypothesis you want to test is reasonable, and if the p-value (probability) is small enough, you can perhaps consider your hypothesis as proven.
 
the courage to participate in this test, and the talent to succeed:

I am seeing a 4 very clearly. It's almost as though I had written it myself.


Please, please, please, please, please stop quoting my six and a half year-old post as evidence of anything whatsoever.

I did not receive your thoughts. I did not see any number. I was in no way influenced by you.

I made my post as a joke. I wrote it sarcastically. My intention was to be cruel. My intention was to mock you and make your pretend test look as absolutely foolish as possible.

In a 1-in-4 test, I had a 25% chance of accidentally guessing the right answer. In hindsight, I should not have picked any number in that range. I had no idea then that you would so mercilessly distort and outright ignore the laws of chance and principles of statistics. A 1-in-4 test is a meaningless way of coming to a conclusion about telepathy without a vast number of participants - a number far exceeding the membership of this forum. At the time, I believed this simple and obvious point was something that you or any adult would understand. I was wrong in that regard. I regret it.

Delete my answer from any calculation you make regarding your powers of telepathy. Do not give it any regard in reinforcing your personal beliefs. Never refer to it or consider it again in any way. And please stop quoting it.
 
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