Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think "people with no moral compass" like Trump primarily do what's in their best interests. Someone who I think thought he was trying to do good in the world is George W. Bush.

But when it came down to it, GW had no qualms lying about the threat Iraq posed simply because GW and Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz decided their selfish beliefs counted more than the facts or public opinion that hadn't been lied to did.

 

[Lurch]

The right to contest subpoenas is a well-established principle of US jurisprudence. You're already witnessing the outcome: Trump and Biden contesting subpoenas. They are, in fact, exercising the same right that you yourself enjoy - that all people enjoy, and may want to exercise.

I think this is a very good outcome. I think that it is a very good thing that subpoenas can be contested.

Oh. So you think you and I and any shlub on the street have the same ability and rights to refuse to honor a legally issued subpoena. Good luck with that.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

If all Trump did was to ask for an investigation, *perhaps* no particularly big thing. But:

1) It does circumvent protocol, where such investigations are either referred to or instigated by the Justice Dep't. Fishy right there.

2) Fishier when the subject is one's political rival.

3) Demanding the investigation as a 'favour, though" is even fishier still.

4) And fishiest of all, witholding an official act as leverage to get that "favour, though" is extortion.

5) Add in the White House's violation of the Witholding Act of 1974 with the issuance of he hold on Congressionally approved aid a mere 91 minutes after Trump hung up the phone after his "perfect" call, and the pieces come together in a most damning picture of deliberate scumbaggery.

Even if Biden and Son were guilty as hell on many matters.

Calling either Biden as a witness has **** all to do with Trump and company's illegal acts.

Don't forget that Trump didn't actually want an investigation, he wanted the announcement of an investigation and didn't care if the investigation itself actually happened.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

If that were true, if there really was reason to believe that the Biden family was part of Ukranian corruption, then everything Trump did would be perfectly reasonable.

You're also, it seems, forgetting that Trump didn't care about an actual investigation but instead wanted an investigation to be announced.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I highlighted what you said in YOUR QUOTE that I don't agree with. How hard can it be?

I have neither the time nor the inclination to walk you through this when you're so dead-set on imposing meaning that is not there.

I know you get like this sometimes, but you should consider that if someone is consistently and repeatedly telling you that you are attributing opinions to them that they do not hold then the thing to do is to think "maybe I am getting something wrong and should try to see where my mistake lies" rather than "no, I definitely know what they mean better than they do - after all, who could possibly be a better judge of what's going on inside someone else's head than me?"

And with that I really am done with this nonsense. I won't reply to you again.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I don't know. But what if they had? Trump was always going to be a moving target. He may be breaking new laws at this very moment.

You were talking about obstructing Mueller, not committing new crimes that could be charged.

If Mitch and Lindsey hadn't bragged about their ability to rig a meaningless "trial" maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. But once they did, what did they think would happen?

The bigger question is if the Democrats didn't think the Republicans would rig the trial for Trump, what did they think would happen? Again, the theory seems to be that this is all a huge surprise, rather than what everybody with even an ounce of common sense saw as a foregone conclusion.

 

[Pixel42]

I think they thought there would at least be a trial at which evidence would be presented and witnesses called, even if they knew it would end in acquittal. At least then the perversity of the acquittal would have been apparent to anyone paying attention. I suspect it was only when it became clear that not even that was on the cards that the idea of withholding the charges occured to Pelosi.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I think they thought there would at least be a trial at which evidence would be presented and witnesses called[...]

Why would they think that? The three most common terms used to describe it by the Republicans are "sham", "witch hunt", and "coup". Why would anybody think it was leading up to anything other than being hand-waved away? Especially after Kavannaugh, Mueller, the bills sitting on McConnell's desk, etc. have amply demonstrated that the Republicans' #1 priority is protecting them and theirs.

I mean it when I say that any politician who genuinely thought that the Republicans would even try to give the appearance of playing fair on this is only demonstrating that they're bad at their job.

 

[a_unique_person]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tr...e-updates-n1086301/ncrd1086861#liveBlogHeader



In a key moment of his testimony on Wednesday, Sondland said that, as he understood it, Zelenskiy simply had to announce the probes into Burisma and the debunked conspiracy into Democrats and the 2016 election — not actually do them.

Pretty much how trump operates. Say you'll do something even though you have no intention of doing it.

 

[Norman Alexander]

The bigger question is if the Democrats didn't think the Republicans would rig the trial for Trump, what did they think would happen? Again, the theory seems to be that this is all a huge surprise, rather than what everybody with even an ounce of common sense saw as a foregone conclusion.

I suspect the Dems are WAY smart enough to have workshopped all their available options long before embarking on the impeachment train. A reasonably decent decision tree would have been created.

The first major decision was taken when Mueller opened the door to impeachment by not exonerating Trump. If Mueller had done so, the Dems would have gone other routes in their 2020 election strategies.

The next junction was the Ukraine situation. Once it became clear that Donny thought his actions were all good and he publicly owned up to an impeachable crime, the impeachment route was taken. Pelosi, previously reluctant to do so, played the "sorry, USA, but we have to do this" card, and the war was on. And they knew clearly that Trump WOULD be impeached before the first statements were taken.

I suspect the next major decision came when Mitch and the other southern boob publicly declared that Trump alone spoke for them, not their own consciences. Clearly, before that the Dems were going to try to persuade the Senate to at least have a semblance of a fair trial and maybe against the odds succeed.

But after that...the best option was to withhold the articles, thereby hamstringing Mitch. They are also leaving the door open to add more articles in drip-feed mode (and I expect there will be more). This is annoying the **** out of Trump because he couldn't grandstand in public and get automatically exonerated like he desperately wants. It is provoking him to say and do more stupid things. And by not clapping back to his rages (which hasn't been mentioned much) they are provoking him even more.

In short, they have lit Trump's fuse and are blowing on it.

 

[a_unique_person]

If they were that smart they would have won the election. Just saying.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't believe that.

In my version of reality the evidence of Trump's corruption drips and drips. It not like it's a surprise to anyone. Now where have I heard that before?

The GOP legislators continue to fear being primaried and some of them, like Moscow Mitch and Nunes, are pleased as peaches with all the alt-right goodies they get form Trump.

But they are not the majority in this country.

If we get a candidate people can get behind, Trump will lose in a landslide of EC delegate votes.

That's the unknown at the moment. There are some candidates Trump will run right over like Biden.

The Evangelicals might sink Buttigieg.

I think Sanders and Warren could win. The socialism attack is another unknown.

It's impossible to tell this early in the process.

But Trump is not a big hero anymore that is going to drain the swamp. Sure he has his core, but more people than not see him for the con he is.

Do you?

Either:

A) You don't understand the difference between "What I want to happen" and "What I think it most likely to happen."

B) You think I don't understand the difference.

C) Both.

 

[Norman Alexander]

If they were that smart they would have won the election. Just saying.

They weren't that smart in 2016. They very much tried to coast Hillary in on Obama's success, after he was no longer eligible to stand (if there were no term limits, he would have won in a walk). Spectacularly bad plan, and they paid the price.

Other aspects of what they are doing differently: Still a footy-team of Dem candidates running even at this stage. And they take up airtime doing so, so less for the GOP - they are getting focus. No matter that they are all a bunch of colourless nobodies mostly. Trump trying to insult them gives them more public attention - focus. Fox News talks about them disparagingly too - focus. The Deplorables tuning in to jeer will see more of the Dems than of the GOP - focus. It's a lesson Trump taught them: all airtime is good airtime.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I suspect the Dems are WAY smart enough to have workshopped all their available options long before embarking on the impeachment train. A reasonably decent decision tree would have been created.

The first major decision was taken when Mueller opened the door to impeachment by not exonerating Trump. If Mueller had done so, the Dems would have gone other routes in their 2020 election strategies.

The next junction was the Ukraine situation. Once it became clear that Donny thought his actions were all good and he publicly owned up to an impeachable crime, the impeachment route was taken. Pelosi, previously reluctant to do so, played the "sorry, USA, but we have to do this" card, and the war was on. And they knew clearly that Trump WOULD be impeached before the first statements were taken.

I suspect the next major decision came when Mitch and the other southern boob publicly declared that Trump alone spoke for them, not their own consciences. Clearly, before that the Dems were going to try to persuade the Senate to at least have a semblance of a fair trial and maybe against the odds succeed.

But after that...the best option was to withhold the articles, thereby hamstringing Mitch. They are also leaving the door open to add more articles in drip-feed mode (and I expect there will be more). This is annoying the **** out of Trump because he couldn't grandstand in public and get automatically exonerated like he desperately wants. It is provoking him to say and do more stupid things. And by not clapping back to his rages (which hasn't been mentioned much) they are provoking him even more.

In short, they have lit Trump's fuse and are blowing on it.

The Dems have been telling me they've got Trump's numbers and know exactly which button of his to push for maximum effect for a while now and outside of all these rumors of him losing it "behind the scenes" like everything the Dems keep doing nothing ever comes of it no matter how long "something is going to come of it any day know we mean it."

 

[Norman Alexander]

The Dems have been telling me they've got Trump's numbers and know exactly which button of his to push for maximum effect for a while now and outside of all these rumors of him losing it "behind the scenes" like everything the Dems keep doing nothing ever comes of it no matter how long "something is going to come of it any day know we mean it."

Seems like that, except for the highlighted bit. That's not their goal, as far as I can tell. They don't intend to "make it pay off" any time yet. The whole idea is to drag it out as long as possible, making it get worse and worse for trump and his "team" all the while. The payoff is at the election, not right now.

Do I think the strategy is going to be successful for the Dems? Possibly. Or perhaps just partially. There is also a fair chance it will fail at the polls anyway. We shall see.

They know full well that Trump plays to no rules. But they can't be seen to get down in the mud with him and ignore the rules also. But that doesn't stop them using the rules cleverly. Mitch does...and now the Dems do too.

 

[varwoche]

Either:

A) You don't understand the difference between "What I want to happen" and "What I would like to happen."
B) You think I don't understand the difference.

C) Both.

<gulp> I'm definitely in this category.

 

[JoeMorgue]

<gulp> I'm definitely in this category.

I fixed it.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Clearly, before that the Dems were going to try to persuade the Senate to at least have a semblance of a fair trial and maybe against the odds succeed.

Which, since it goes against all the available evidence, would not have been evidence of intelligent planning. Again, if they were stupid enough to honestly believe that, then all they're demonstrating is that they're bad at their jobs.

 

[Random]

The Dems have been telling me they've got Trump's numbers and know exactly which button of his to push for maximum effect for a while now and outside of all these rumors of him losing it "behind the scenes" like everything the Dems keep doing nothing ever comes of it no matter how long "something is going to come of it any day know we mean it."

It's not a question of getting Trumps number, that's not really possible with a GOP Senate majority that is dependent on the Trump Base to have any chance of keeping power. As long as the GOP leadership is prepared to support Trump, any effort by the Democrats to remove Trump from office will fail. This has been basic math since 2016.

Heck, Pelosi's strategy once they got a House majority was to have a bunch of investigations, but not impeach. Instead they would put their efforts to winning the 2020 election and removing Trump that way.

Trumps magical Ukraine adventure screwed up that plan. If Trump is trying to rig the 2020 election, then waiting to remove him with a 2020 election victory will not work. The only other move Pelosi had was to go for impeachment. And here we are.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

The third possibility is that Trump is neither a cynic nor a lunatic, but merely very, very stupid.

Rather than “stupid”, I would say ignorant - willfully so, by all indications.