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UK - December 2019 General Election

Yeah, bitching about how stupid the voters are always solves the problem.

Please feel free to proffer a constructive alternative.

Trying to bring new business into an area doesn't work - people don't want the new jobs.

Trying to retrain people doesn't work - people think it's a waste of time.

Suggesting that people could move to where the jobs are is pointless - people don't want to leave their home town.

There are parts of the UK, as in the US, where people want their old jobs back - but those jobs are never coming back.

In those areas where immigration is highest, the draw to immigrants are jobs that the locals are unwilling or unable to do - generally backbreaking work in fields, icky cleaning or social care jobs or jobs where there are high skills requirements.
 
So Corbyn will not lead Labor into another general election but is not stepping down as Party Leader?
God, that muddled missage is so perfectly Corbyn.
He needs to go. Now. I think Labor needs to show they reject him as a leader.
The guy just lead Labor into the political equivalent of The Somme offensive, and he still wants to hang around?

He has stated he'll be standing down early in the New Year. That's just few weeks away. Chill. Also, please make at least a minimal attempt to spell the party's name correctly - it's Labour.
 
Yes they did, they voted against leaving the EU numerous times.

Voting against government bills is a completely different thing to leaving your party and standing as a candidate opposing your own (ex) party in a general election.
 
Yeah, bitching about how stupid the voters are always solves the problem.

Might not solve any problems, but saying that people are stupid to vote against their interest is still correct. Denying this might actually cause problems. The trick is to get through the propaganda and make people understand what's worth voting for and what's not. For example, "getting sovereignty back" isn't worth voting for because sovereignty was never lost. People were conned, willingly or not. "Getting the Polacks out" isn't worth voting for, because it harkens back to the darkest parts of the human experience and it also doesn't actually solve any problems in the long term. Again, people were conned.

While this right wing populism bullcrap is happening all over, it seems to be going especially strong in the UK, the US and Australia. For those who are wondering why, one answer might be Rupert Murdoch.
 
Might not solve any problems, but saying that people are stupid to vote against their interest is still correct. Denying this might actually cause problems. The trick is to get through the propaganda and make people understand what's worth voting for and what's not. For example, "getting sovereignty back" isn't worth voting for because sovereignty was never lost. People were conned, willingly or not. "Getting the Polacks out" isn't worth voting for, because it harkens back to the darkest parts of the human experience and it also doesn't actually solve any problems in the long term. Again, people were conned.

While this right wing populism bullcrap is happening all over, it seems to be going especially strong in the UK, the US and Australia. For those who are wondering why, one answer might be Rupert Murdoch.

I think it's being exported from Russia, personally.
 
Please feel free to proffer a constructive alternative.

Trying to bring new business into an area doesn't work - people don't want the new jobs.

Trying to retrain people doesn't work - people think it's a waste of time.

Suggesting that people could move to where the jobs are is pointless - people don't want to leave their home town.

There are parts of the UK, as in the US, where people want their old jobs back - but those jobs are never coming back.

In those areas where immigration is highest, the draw to immigrants are jobs that the locals are unwilling or unable to do - generally backbreaking work in fields, icky cleaning or social care jobs or jobs where there are high skills requirements.

Exactly here and in the USA you seem to have a growing group of voters who just want to turn the clock back to some imaginary golden past. It's in no small part why people voted for Brexit and its a big factor in why those who will suffer most under the Tories voted for them despite all warnings to the contrary.

BTW I do feel the BBC should be added to the list of 'turkeys'. They bent over backwards to avoid putting Boris on the spot but I doubt its going to save them from 'reform'.
 
Please feel free to proffer a constructive alternative.

Trying to bring new business into an area doesn't work - people don't want the new jobs.

Trying to retrain people doesn't work - people think it's a waste of time.

Suggesting that people could move to where the jobs are is pointless - people don't want to leave their home town.

There are parts of the UK, as in the US, where people want their old jobs back - but those jobs are never coming back.

In those areas where immigration is highest, the draw to immigrants are jobs that the locals are unwilling or unable to do - generally backbreaking work in fields, icky cleaning or social care jobs or jobs where there are high skills requirements.

I am no Pollyanna, but unrelented Gloom and Doom only helps the very people you are opposing.
 
We can be angry at the Tories for winning this election, but we must feel an equal rage for the people who let them do it. I am speaking of those who led the main party of opposition down a blind alley that ended in Labour’s worst election performance since the 1930s – a performance that broke new records for failure. Look upon the scale of that calamity: to lose seats to a government in power for nine lean years, a government seeking a fourth term that is almost never granted, a cruel government so divided it purged two former chancellors and some of its best-known MPs, led by a documented liar and fraud. A half-functioning opposition party would have wiped the floor with this Tory party. Instead, Labour was crushed by it.

The leadership’s defenders wasted no time in blaming it all on Brexit. To be sure, Brexit has convulsed our politics and made Labour’s electoral coalition perilously hard to hold together. But pause before declaring that this was the Brexit election: in fact, the NHS overtook Brexit as voters’ top concern. The trouble was, voters trusted Johnson on the NHS more than they trusted Jeremy Corbyn. You read that right.

Which brings us to a core point that those culpable for this disaster would rather you didn’t contemplate. Like anyone who travelled the country and listened to voters, candidates and canvassers, I heard with my own ears the Labour voters who said they couldn’t back the party this time, not because of Brexit but because of Corbyn. Indeed, Brexit was often cited not for its own sake – little of this campaign was spent debating customs zones and trade agreements – but rather for its confirmation of their view that Corbyn was irredeemably “weak”.

...

Labour knew it and Corbyn knew it. Those appalling numbers were not state secrets. His admirers always describe him as a selfless, almost saintly man, devoid of ego. So why didn’t he take one look at his own ratings and say, “I am clearly a drag on this party’s prospects. Those who need a Labour government have a better chance of getting one if I step aside.” Not a chance.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/corbynism-labour-left-party

This is one of the more common traits of poor leadership: they don't know when it's time to quit even when it's for the good of the people they lead.
 
Exactly here and in the USA you seem to have a growing group of voters who just want to turn the clock back to some imaginary golden past. It's in no small part why people voted for Brexit and its a big factor in why those who will suffer most under the Tories voted for them despite all warnings to the contrary.

BTW I do feel the BBC should be added to the list of 'turkeys'. They bent over backwards to avoid putting Boris on the spot but I doubt its going to save them from 'reform'.



I don't think that any of this is true or correct. And I find it extremely interesting (to put it kindly) that so many posters in this thread - in fact almost all posters in this thread - have regurgitated the dogma about Labour being somehow the panacea for people on low income or benefits, being the saviours and protectors of the NHS, and being the only one of the two main parties that "cares".

As at least The Don pointed out, the world changes and some people gain from those changes and others lose out. There are extremely good reasons why we effectively don't have a coal industry any longer, and why industries such as ship-building and heavy manufacturing are a small fraction of what they were only a generation or so ago. Yet the Labour party of those times - and, I can be near-certain, the Labour party of last week (had the situation been the same) - was talking of "saving" those sorts of industries.

And at the same time, it's reductive nonsense to believe and espouse the view that Conservative policy in government is deliberately aimed at punishing poor/ill/disabled/unemployed people (and that, by contrast, Labour would somehow "save" such people), or that a Conservative government aims to starve the NHS of resources and then sell bits of it off to the highest bidder (and that again, by contrast, Labour would somehow raise the NHS up to magnificence*).

See, there isn't a Magical Money Tree. Instead, there is a Real Money Tree. And one philosophy of trying to make the Real Money Tree grow - and thereby to have more public funds to allow for increased funding of public services - is to focus on growing the economy. By doing that (according to this philosophy), more people go into work and with increased productivity comes increased wages; both of those things result in a sizeable increase in income tax/NI revenue. And if the economy grows, there's the prospect of increased export of goods and services, the prospect of a lesser need to import goods and service, and the prospect of inward investment into the UK; all of those things ultimately result in healthier public finances as well.

The administrations of 2010 onwards didn't impose austerity conditions (though "austerity" is a relative term - as is "poverty") in order to crap on vulnerable members of society. They did so in the hope (whether that hope was misguided or not) of conserving public finances and trying to stimulate the economy in other, monetarist, ways. And the hope was that gearing down the public finances would allow ultimately for strength in years to come (a (imperfect) analogy might be that if you're driving your car at 70mph in 5th gear and you suddenly have to slam on the brakes and slow down to 10mph, you're not going to try to build up speed again in the same 5th gear, but rather you'll select 2nd gear - and that will allow you to build up your speed again effectively and smoothly).

Now of course there's an excellent argument to be had about whether austerity is (or, more accuratly, was) an effective way of trying to rebuild the economy and public finances. Just as there's an excellent argument to be had over whether monetarism (in any of its many flavours and degrees) or fiscal strategies are the best way to govern a country. But simply to parrot this (hard left) Labour claptrap about Labour being able to save everything and the Evil Tories' only goal being to enrich themselves and their friends while deliberately defecating from a great height onto vulnerable groups in society and public institutions such as the NHS..... is to reduce the debate to simplistic and misleading rhetoric.



* In fact, well over half of the (very limited) privatisation of the NHS to date was conducted under a Labour administration (Blair). And that same Labour administration allowed itself to become seduced by the PFI fairies, because PFI allowed them to get shiny new hospitals (and schools, and other public buildings) built "for free" - that's to say with zero up-front government funding and therefore zero negative impact on the public balance sheet; but of course there's no such thing as a free lunch, and the rent-back and facilities maintenance cost are eye-wateringly high and - over the useful life of the facilities - substantially higher than if the govt had done things conventionally.
 
I hope you are right, but I think it would take at least two or three elections for this to happen.


I am not so sure. Look at what happened in Victoria in 1999 when Kennett had a huge majority and lost the election.


Or more recently in Queensland. After the 2012 election, Labor was left with seven seats, against the Government's 51. The pundits said it would take two to three elections at a minimum for them to come back. They won the next election in 2015.



Swings of 8 - 10% were the norm in the UK yesterday, and the Government was partly elected by the desire to "get Brexit done" and probably the perception that Corbin was not PM material. If Boris does not do a lot more, and he fails to meet the perception that he can make the UK great again, and Labour elect a charismatic leader, as happened in Queensland between 2012 and 2015, the backlash could come quite quickly, and the swing could easily be reversed five years from now.


Yes, I added if's and and's, but with modern politics there are are no certainties. Anything is possible.



Norm
 
So Corbyn will not lead Labor into another general election but is not stepping down as Party Leader?
God, that muddled missage is so perfectly Corbyn.
He needs to go. Now. I think Labor needs to show they reject him as a leader.
The guy just lead Labor into the political equivalent of The Somme offensive, and he still wants to hang around?

He was done the instant exit polling was complete. Staying on to accommodate the transition seems perfectly reasonable to me.
 
He was done the instant exit polling was complete. Staying on to accommodate the transition seems perfectly reasonable to me.

And as I said it makes no difference at the moment as to who the leader is. Indeed I wouldn't be surprised if the next leader doesn't even take Labour into the next general election. A caretaker leader for a couple of years sounds to me like a good idea, then have a new energetic leader for the last 2 years of this government who can start with a clean report card.
 
Voting against government bills is a completely different thing to leaving your party and standing as a candidate opposing your own (ex) party in a general election.

They never 'left' they were thrown out by Boris.
 
Pretty much the same in the US.
One thing is sure:Ranting about what amounts to "Those Stupid Proles" will not fix matters.
George Orwell picked up that a certain class of Left Wingers really have contempt for the working class they claim to support.

Truth is, working class populations tend to be densely populated (=one ward) whereas middle-class areas are widely spread out in green, leafy areas of relatively low density, which means the net sum of say, thirty-two middle-class areas, get thirty-two Conservative seats for the same net population as the one densely packed working class Labour seat.

Nothing to do with left wing 'contempt for the working class'.
 
So Corbyn will not lead Labor into another general election but is not stepping down as Party Leader?
God, that muddled missage is so perfectly Corbyn.
He needs to go. Now. I think Labor needs to show they reject him as a leader.
The guy just lead Labor into the political equivalent of The Somme offensive, and he still wants to hang around?

The smearing of Jeremy Corbyn by right-wing owned newspapers desperate to protect their own capitalist interests, including BBC's Fiona Bruce encouraging Corbyn-sneering on Question Time, is the real reason he failed. Libel is a tort for the very reason defamation actually works. Blacken someone's name and people believe it.

The only time the Tory-owned press will be happy with a Labour leader is if he is actually a Tory-boy warmongerer liar like Tony Blair (member of the Tory union at Uni) and in cohoots with Republican POTUS of the day, George W Bush.
 
I guess the question is "what to do?"

Putting the brakes on immigration in the UK won't help. it'll just further depress the economy which is already on its knees.

There have been repeated attempts to train people and suggest that they should take jobs outside their immediate location but this doesn't do well. People want their old jobs in their hometowns back - unfortunately they won't come back.

I noticed one cheeky EU citizen complaining in the GRUANIAD that 'Commonwealth citizens [=translated: 'black and ethnic minority'] seem to have more right to be here than we do'. Er, yes, sorry, but they are British and you are not.
 
The way I see it, Jeremy Corbyn want to stay at the helm long enough to hand over the reins to a hand-picked successor.

The abject failure at the polls is a clear indication that his policies are absolutely on the money. The fewer votes you attract, the less you are pandering to the bourgoisie and hence are ideologically pure.

When you start attracting mass support for your policies, it's clear indication that you are selling out. :rolleyes:

Other parties actually got more votes than BoJo.
 
I noticed one cheeky EU citizen complaining in the GRUANIAD that 'Commonwealth citizens [=translated: 'black and ethnic minority'] seem to have more right to be here than we do'. Er, yes, sorry, but they are British and you are not.
Commonwealth citizens have never been British.
 
Might not solve any problems, but saying that people are stupid to vote against their interest is still correct. Denying this might actually cause problems. The trick is to get through the propaganda and make people understand what's worth voting for and what's not. For example, "getting sovereignty back" isn't worth voting for because sovereignty was never lost. People were conned, willingly or not. "Getting the Polacks out" isn't worth voting for, because it harkens back to the darkest parts of the human experience and it also doesn't actually solve any problems in the long term. Again, people were conned.

While this right wing populism bullcrap is happening all over, it seems to be going especially strong in the UK, the US and Australia. For those who are wondering why, one answer might be Rupert Murdoch.

It almost hurts me to say it :D but for once I agree with you.
 

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