Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Meadmaker]

But not one person on your side of the discussion wants to have that discussion beyond shouting TRANSWOMEN HAVE PENISES AND NEED TO BE DISCRIMINATED AGAIN BECAUSE THEY ARE MEN! MEN ! MEN ! MEN!

I'm sure someone on "this side" must have said something else in the last 100 pages.


And I don't remember anyone using all caps that way.

 

[Belz...]

I'm sure someone on "this side" must have said something else in the last 100 pages.


And I don't remember anyone using all caps that way.

In fact not a single person made an argument that ressembles this. It's just another strawman because any dissent from one extreme must ipso facto be from the other extreme.

 

[Meadmaker]

In fact not a single person made an argument that ressembles this. It's just another strawman because any dissent from one extreme must ipso facto be from the other extreme.

To be fair, the whole point of a straw man is to resemble a real man, and his presentation has a superficial resemblance to my actual position, which is shared with some others. I have said, repeatedly, that transwomen are men.

The rest of what he said is the straw part.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

What's amusing is that the use of the term 'cismale' throws out the entire concept of sex and gender as distinct concepts.

It's a term that refers to a specific combination of sexual identity and gender expression. Which, if anything, validates that those are distinct and separate things.

YMMV.

 

[Belz...]

It's a term that refers to a specific combination of sexual identity and gender expression. Which, if anything, validates that those are distinct and separate things.

Wait a second: what's the difference between a trans-male and a trans-man, then?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Wait a second: what's the difference between a trans-male and a trans-man, then?

No idea, the terms aren't all that consistently used, sadly. I think it's already been pointed out a few times transgender itself is not quite correct to describe the group it applies to, but transexual was felt to have too much baggage.

 

[Ziggurat]

You keep saying it, what you haven't done is show it. All you have shown so far is that there are competing views. Do you get that point?

Oh, I get your point, you're just wrong. I presented evidence, you're simply ignoring it.

Correlation is not causation. Porn is not the same as nudity in a changing room.
Do you think gay men get aroused in a male changing room? Because it's starting to sound a lot like the 'bums to the wall' talk we heard from homophobes now.

I expect they probably do, at times. But it's not an equivalent problem. In general, males cannot easily overpower other males like they can females. The acceptance of open promiscuity among gay men may also reduce the incentive to sexual assault (though it may bread other pathologies). But in any case, long experience has demonstrated that it's not really a problem. But the fact that it's not really a problem for gay men in male locker rooms doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a problem for males in female locker rooms. That doesn't follow at all.

 

[Ziggurat]

Again you are completely over-simplifying to a ridiculous point. People peep because they get a pleasure from peeping.

Um... that is simplifying it more than I did.

And yes people do peep at clothed women also. The peeping gives them a thrill because they aren't supposed to be doing it and they know that. They also get a thrill from the fact that the victim is unsuspecting. Otherwise they would just go to a strip show and see women naked.

That doesn't contradict anything I said. As I already pointed out, human behavior is multi-factorial. You're the one who wants to focus on only one factor so you can discount anything you don't want to consider, so you're the one oversimplifying this, not me. And to the extent that they're turned on by the illicit nature of the act, that's also heightened in the case of nudity. Yes, some peepers probably like to peep at women clothed as well, but are you seriously claiming that they prefer to peep at women clothed rather than naked? There might be someone out there like that, because the world is big and people are strange and varied, but most peepers would prefer to peep at naked women, not clothed women, even if they'll take clothed women when naked ones aren't available.

If it is primarily about nudity as you suggest then a strip show would seem like the preferred destination rather than a woman's locker room.

It doesn't matter what it's "primarily" about, what matters is that nudity is a significant factor. And you have to pay for the strip show, you can peep for free.

None of this has anything to do with trans issues of course. Perverts peeping on women need to be dealt with whenever and wherever it happens.

And if those perverts peeping on women claim to be transwomen? How do you propose we "deal with" them?

 

[Ziggurat]

No the problem is the people who don't want to discuss solutions or deal with the problem as it exists because all they actually want to is discriminate against trans people and use the 'problem' as an excuse.

Otherwise the question would quite simply be 'how can we allow trans people access to women's facilities while also ensuring the safety of women from cismale perverts'

Everything you accuse me of doing, you are doing yourself. You aren't dealing with the problem as it exists. You think this is just about cismale perverts. But what exactly is the difference between a cismale pervert and a transwoman pervert? If self-identity is everything, then a person can switch between the two at a word. And there's no point in protecting women from cismale perverts but leaving them completely vulnerable to transwoman perverts if cismale perverts can instantly become transwoman perverts.

But not one person on your side of the discussion wants to have that discussion beyond shouting TRANSWOMEN HAVE PENISES AND NEED TO BE DISCRIMINATED AGAIN BECAUSE THEY ARE MEN! MEN ! MEN ! MEN! '

And again, you're doing everything you accuse others of doing. You won't have an honest discussion without straw manning your opposition.

 

[Lithrael]

In my dystopian future we’ll all get eyeline cams and everyone will have the option of setting off a buzzer and flashing lights on anyone making more than three seconds of consecutive or ten seconds total eye contact with their no-no-zones in changing rooms and toilets.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

What's amusing is that the use of the term 'cismale' throws out the entire concept of sex and gender as distinct concepts.

As I've tried to point out, the Cultural Marxist's primary weapon is to try to control discourse by controlling language itself, giving existing words entirely new meanings and (more commonly) prising in entirely new ones like "cismale"

There is no way to argue with people who use this new lexicon like squid ink.

 

[Meadmaker]

As I've tried to point out, the Cultural Marxist's primary weapon is to try to control discourse by controlling language itself, giving existing words entirely new meanings and (more commonly) prising in entirely new ones like "cismale"

There is no way to argue with people who use this new lexicon like squid ink.

If Orwell were alive today, would he have written about "transpeace"?

 

[IsThisTheLife]

If Orwell were alive today, would he have written about "transpeace"?

He'd have to find some other way of earning a living, seeing as what he imagined in his time is now almost reality.

 

[theprestige]

He'd have to find some other way of earning a living, seeing as what he imagined in his time is now almost reality.

You should sell umbrellas to go with that sky-is-falling schtick.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

You can keep repeating it over and over but you're the one making a claim that goes against accepted norms and knowledge. We don't need to re-prove basic physics every time a crackpot comes to the science section to claim he's solved everything.

A biological/anthropological explanation for human sexuality isn't remotely proven.

It is not remotely appropriate to give it the credibility of "basic physics."

This is just a slightly more advanced version of stamping your feet and insisting the whole universe agrees with you.

I see. So you can make random, unfounded accusations, and when called on it you act like an eight year old. Own your words and retract what you said.

I wrote a zinger. Stay butt hurt over it aslong as you like, your choice.

Yes, like all humans I have the ability to interpret people's observable actions and determine their underlying motivations.

Like all people, interpretations you rely on might not be accurate.

Now, how about you stop acting like a kid and discuss the points and arguments made?

I have been.

Also: hypocrite much?

 

[Ziggurat]

A biological/anthropological explanation for human sexuality isn't remotely proven.

Wait, seriously? Sex, one of the most fundamental behaviors of almost all animal species, a behavior without which most species would go extinct, doesn't have a biological basis?

Do you realize how remarkable that claim is?

It is not remotely appropriate to give it the credibility of "basic physics."

Fair enough, let's just give it the credibility of evolution then. That's an entirely appropriate comparison.

 

[Meadmaker]

I'm still waiting to find out why it's only "cismales" that women are to be protected from. So any male who claims trans status gets a free pass.

When I'm participating in a thread, I often do a bit of basic research on the topic, trying to find links and articles and such. Most of the time in this case that's limited to putting the search term "transgender" into google news. However, on a couple of occasions I have decided to turn off safe search, make sure I wasn't on any computer that I was ever going to take to the Robotics team, and use a few more precautions before searching, and then I did a more general search.


I want to assure anyone, just in case anyone thought that perverts were limited to the cisgender world, that there are plenty of transgender perverts in the world.

Two things: First, it's interesting that certain fetishistic displays on the internet are far more common in men than in women, and yet, when it comes to transgenders, those displays are more common in transwomen than in trans men.

Let me throw a question out to the class to see if anyone has any theories on why that might be. Anyone? No, no, not you Rolfe, we want to see some new hands on this one. I already know that you know the answer.

Second, we've been saying "pervert" a lot, as if it were a bad thing. I'm not so sure we ought to be so judgemental.

The problem with peepers is not that they are perverted. The problem is that they do things, specifically watching, without others' consent.

 

[Strawberry]

When I'm participating in a thread, I often do a bit of basic research on the topic, trying to find links and articles and such. Most of the time in this case that's limited to putting the search term "transgender" into google news. However, on a couple of occasions I have decided to turn off safe search, make sure I wasn't on any computer that I was ever going to take to the Robotics team, and use a few more precautions before searching, and then I did a more general search.


I want to assure anyone, just in case anyone thought that perverts were limited to the cisgender world, that there are plenty of transgender perverts in the world.

Two things: First, it's interesting that certain fetishistic displays on the internet are far more common in men than in women, and yet, when it comes to transgenders, those displays are more common in transwomen than in trans men.

Let me throw a question out to the class to see if anyone has any theories on why that might be. Anyone? No, no, not you Rolfe, we want to see some new hands on this one. I already know that you know the answer.

Second, we've been saying "pervert" a lot, as if it were a bad thing. I'm not so sure we ought to be so judgemental.

The problem with peepers is not that they are perverted. The problem is that they do things, specifically watching, without others' consent.

To answer your question, it's because sexual fetishism is more common among men than women, and transwomen are a type of man.

 

[Rolfe]

There are of course two parallel points

One is of course that with self-ID it's clearly open for any man at all to declare that he's trans, even if this is purely for the purpose of harrassing women. In fact a report from inside the prison service has stated that many of the male prisoners claiming trans status appear to be trying it on purely to get themselves transferred to the less strict confines of a women's prison where as an additional bonus there are actual women who can't get away from them.

And there's no point in saying "oh but to get a GRC even with self-declaration they'll have to make a 'solemn declaration' in front of a JP." Men have put serious effort into becoming youth leaders and even trained for the priesthood in order to get access to vulnerable women and children so signing a "solemn declaration" doesn't sound like much of a deterrent. But not only that, with the proposed new rules they don't even need to have a GRC. It's transphobic to ask for a GRC! How many people in this thread have railed against the iniquity of anyone having to produce a piece of paper before they can enter the lavatory or changing room of their choice? They only have to say they're a woman while they're doing the harrassing. In fact probably not even that, as in this climate nobody is going to challenge them at all for fear of being called a bigoted transphobe. Or indeed, many facilities have simply been made mixed-sex to avoid any possible unpleasantness relating to having to determine who is trans and who isn't. It's a stalker's and harrasser's charter.

And the second point it that it's not only nice people who transition. Some downright creepy people transition and I give you JY as Exhibit A. (In case anyone wasn't aware, JY has been outed as grooming underage girls - the one who came forward most conspicuously is called Jessica and it looks as if Jonathan appropriated her name.) If we go through the depressing list of transwomen who have been convicted of various shocking offences, alongside the men who may well be faking it to get into a women's prison, there are a goodly number who appear to be as trans as JY, as trans as Alex Drummond, as trans as Danielle Muscato.

There is no gatekeeping. There is no way, without gatekeeping, to keep women safe from men who simply declare they're trans for the purpose of harrassment, and from men whose transition seems as genuine as many others, but who are deeply problematic nevertheless.

"... ensuring the safety of women from cismale perverts..." is simply not possible under self-ID, and even if it were, it would not ensure the safety of women from genuinely trans-identifying perverts.

 

[Rolfe]

There are times when this thread resembles this remark.

https://twitter.com/GoodyCorvid/status/1202350726770544640