Jeffrey Epstein arrested for child sex trafficking

[Planigale]

Who would you say are the non-clergy most prolific pedophiles in history?

Whilst not wanting to get into quibbles about the definition of pedophilia, I suspect this is quite a recent concept as regards adolescents. Historically and in most cultures women would have been married off as young teenagers. Womanhood usually began with a woman's first period. In some countries the age of consent is 14; many states in the US allow child marriage and implicitly therefore allow legal sex with children. My guess is any ruler in history with a harem or concubines would have had far more adolescent sexual partners. Dozens over a life time would be regarded as quite restrained.

If asked to name someone who I suspect has slept with more teen agers than Epstein I'd go with Bill Wyman.

 

[kellyb]

Whilst not wanting to get into quibbles about the definition of pedophilia, I suspect this is quite a recent concept as regards adolescents. Historically and in most cultures women would have been married off as young teenagers. Womanhood usually began with a woman's first period. In some countries the age of consent is 14; many states in the US allow child marriage and implicitly therefore allow legal sex with children. My guess is any ruler in history with a harem or concubines would have had far more adolescent sexual partners. Dozens over a life time would be regarded as quite restrained.

If asked to name someone who I suspect has slept with more teen agers than Epstein I'd go with Bill Wyman.

All females were property of males throughout many cultures in much of history, and adult men marrying child brides as young as 8 still happens to this day. I'm well aware of "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" mentality. 9 years old is within the real of medically normal for menstruation. I'm sure you know that, though.

I'm also not sure quibbling about the definition of pedophilia is going to be helpful, either, unless you want to re-normalize old, powerful men having sex with underage girls because biology.

So, even if Epstein is #2, he's still "one of the most prolific pedophiles in history" and stating it as thus isn't an "outrageous claim."

 

[zooterkin]

Yes, but if we're going to be ridiculous about definitions, then I will point out that even a paedophile who only ever abuses one child on one occasion, would be on the list of the most prolific paedophiles in history, albeit at the very bottom of the list.

So let's not go down that route.

Sorry, it’s not a ridiculous point, though not one that should distract too much from the main point. There’s a difference between being sexually attracted to a pre-pubescent and a post-pubescent minor. Acting on the latter is still illegal (though the definition of underage varies, depending on where you are), but it’s not the same thing as being attracted to someone who is physically still a child. Using the wrong term is a way of whipping up extra outrage.

 

[Matthew Best]

The words paedophile and paedophilia are commonly used informally to describe an adult's sexual interest in pubescent or post-pubescent teenagers. It may be medically incorrect, but it's the way the word is actually used by many people.

 

[kellyb]

Sorry, it’s not a ridiculous point, though not one that should distract too much from the main point. There’s a difference between being sexually attracted to a pre-pubescent and a post-pubescent minor. Acting on the latter is still illegal (though the definition of underage varies, depending on where you are), but it’s not the same thing as being attracted to someone who is physically still a child. Using the wrong term is a way of whipping up extra outrage.

There is no line in the sand between pre-pubescent and post. Puberty starts as young as 9 (within the spectrum of medically normal) and end probably some time in the early 20's, usually, once the interaction between the raging hormones of youth, frontal lobe development, and all the other transitions (both biological and social) into true adulthood are completed.
It's one thing when the teenagers or young adults are close to the same age, and it's even understandable that an fully adult man might have some nostalgia for his own youth and the girls he dated and fell in love with when young himself, in that way, but the laws exist for good reasons.

 

[zooterkin]

There is no line in the sand between pre-pubescent and post. Puberty starts as young as 9 (within the spectrum of medically normal) and end probably some time in the early 20's, usually, once the interaction between the raging hormones of youth, frontal lobe development, and all the other transitions (both biological and social) into true adulthood are completed.
It's one thing when the teenagers or young adults are close to the same age, and it's even understandable that an fully adult man might have some nostalgia for his own youth and the girls he dated and fell in love with when young himself, in that way, but the laws exist for good reasons.

I’m not disagreeing with any of that.

 

[zooterkin]

The words paedophile and paedophilia are commonly used informally to describe an adult's sexual interest in pubescent or post-pubescent teenagers. It may be medically incorrect, but it's the way the word is actually used by many people.

And if no-one points out the inaccuracy, it’s not likely to change. As critical thinkers, I think it’s important to use the correct terms, even if people who don’t know any better don’t.

 

[Vixen]

There is no line in the sand between pre-pubescent and post. Puberty starts as young as 9 (within the spectrum of medically normal) and end probably some time in the early 20's, usually, once the interaction between the raging hormones of youth, frontal lobe development, and all the other transitions (both biological and social) into true adulthood are completed.
It's one thing when the teenagers or young adults are close to the same age, and it's even understandable that an fully adult man might have some nostalgia for his own youth and the girls he dated and fell in love with when young himself, in that way, but the laws exist for good reasons.

The youngest the prosecutors could come up with in the plea deal was 14-years old. Just one.

Nine-year-olds being physiologically pubescent are exceedingly rare. There's little doubt Epstein abused teenage girls and it is likely they naively believed they were going to be in a special relationship with him. Roberts/Guiffre claims she was groomed by him aged 15 yet Ghislaine Maxwell in her depositions produced proof that she was documented as being age 17 as of the time she left her previous employment.

If the vast majority of Epstein's prostitute ring were over eighteen then I can't see he could be labelled a 'paedophile'.

 

[Bob001]

.....
If the vast majority of Epstein's prostitute ring were over eighteen then I can't see he could be labelled a 'paedophile'.

By all accounts Epstein preyed on young teenagers, not over 18, and I note again that they were not prostitutes because they could not consent to sex. These girls were raped or assaulted. This is not a complex concept. It's not clear how anyone benefits from demeaning the victims.

Wild, who first met Epstein in 2002, when she was 14, told the Herald that by the time she was 16, she “had probably brought him 70 to 80 girls who were all 14 and 15 years old.” Wild said that Epstein told her he wanted girls “as young as I could find them” and that “he wanted as many girls as I could get him. It was never enough.” Other witnesses have testified in civil court that hundreds of girls were brought to Epstein’s homes.

https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/how-many-jeffrey-epstein-victims-are-there.html

 

[Bob001]

And if no-one points out the inaccuracy, it’s not likely to change. As critical thinkers, I think it’s important to use the correct terms, even if people who don’t know any better don’t.

Great. So Epstein's not a pedophile. The correct medical term is ephebophile.

Ephebophilia: A sexual preference for children in mid- to late adolescence.

https://www.rightdiagnosis.com/e/ephebophilia/intro.htm

Let's just call him a vicious predator.

 

[Arcade22]

Whilst not wanting to get into quibbles about the definition of pedophilia, I suspect this is quite a recent concept as regards adolescents. Historically and in most cultures women would have been married off as young teenagers. Womanhood usually began with a woman's first period. In some countries the age of consent is 14; many states in the US allow child marriage and implicitly therefore allow legal sex with children. My guess is any ruler in history with a harem or concubines would have had far more adolescent sexual partners. Dozens over a life time would be regarded as quite restrained.

If asked to name someone who I suspect has slept with more teen agers than Epstein I'd go with Bill Wyman.

Going back just 100 years ago you would struggle to find widespread news reports of any child rapists with many victims. The this is not because pedophiles and other people who sexually abused young children didn't exist back then, it was just that much of western society was far more conservative and often didn't really consider such subjects worthy of public discussion. It was not just indecent, but tended to undermine the hierarchical social status system that kept people "in their place".

There was no sexual education, and even young adults often lacked the words and knowledge to actually talk about things like sex in a elaborate manner, let alone difficult subjects like sexual abuse, exploitation and coercion. Moreover, those in positions of authority and power were often beyond reproach, despite the fact that they were the people most able to take advantage of others sexually or otherwise.

Hell it was even acceptable and thought very appropriate for teachers to physically abuse and humiliate children in order to "discipline" them. Would these children dare speak out against the person who was flogging them? It's not like anyone would believe such a "troubled child" at all in any case, just like they wouldn't believe accusations made against priests or anyone else.

Edit: Historically, police and psychiatry was more concerned about adults who "lewdly touched" and molested children rather than those who actually raped them, since the actual rapists were more often able to avoid detection and conviction.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

In the U.S. that would not be a defense. Claiming "I thought she was 18!" doesn't get you off the hook if she wasn't, even if she herself claimed she was.

I don't think it does in the UK either (with the difference that it's 16 here)

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Also while you can point to historical periods where people married and procreated at a young age, there are other periods where people waited until mid-to-late 20s. Closer examination shows this correlates with population pressures at either end of the scale experienced during those times.

Very low pops depressed land rents while also raising labor wages. A person could build up enough cash to rent a plot to work for their own sustenance quickly and thus start a family. Those high wages also meant once you have a plot, you want some "little helpers" that you don't have to pay as quick as possible. Vice versa on the opposite end of the scale.

 

[bruto]

Well, whatever phile he used to be he's a deadophile now.

 

[Arcade22]

The issue isn't just the numbers, although that's a big factor. It's also the extent of his global web. He actually employed people to bring him fresh victims in Miami, New York, London, the Virgin Islands and elsewhere. He flew sex slaves to his private island. He used his vast wealth to manipulate people who might have held him to account, including law enforcement, and to bring celebrities into his net. When he was charged in Florida, he assembled an expensive team of household-name lawyers who clearly outgunned the local prosecutors. This is all way, way beyond the doings of the average priest or coach or scout leader.

His network was so large, spanning continents and involved so many people yet despite the "massive evidence" you said the prosecution had they were only going to charge one single individual before the last minute plea-bargain was made. Even if there was no plea-bargain he was the only one going to stand trial. You'd think they would at least have snagged one of the countless "recruiters".

Seriously, you are giving to much credence to insinuations and claims made without any proof. It's exactly this kind of behavior that leads to moral panics about satanic daycare centers with pedophile orgies and child sacrifices. Get some facts instead.

His victims over his lifetime may number in the scores or more. By what measure do you claim he is NOT one of the most (NOT the most) prolific pedophiles in history?

https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/how-many-jeffrey-epstein-victims-are-there.html

The NYT said about the criminal charges he was facing, before the plea-bargain was made, that "it was estimated in court filings that he had engaged in sexual activity with at least 30 underage girls."

While this might very well be an underestimate, it might also very well include "victims" that are only considered as such because they were underage even if he did not rape them. Even if we assume that every single one of them were victims of rape and sexual abuse this wouldn't be enough to declare that he was among the most prolific sexual abusers in history.

Moreover, in another article they interview 2 women that are suing his estate and who say they were adults at the time he sexually assaulted them during a supposed interview for a job.

So given the age range of the victims, calling him a "pedophile" or "paedophile" is totally inaccurate, but such inaccuracy is apparently of no consequence. Paying a 17 year old for sex and raping 12 year old is pretty much the same thing apparently, since age is just a number.

 

[Vixen]

By all accounts Epstein preyed on young teenagers, not over 18, and I note again that they were not prostitutes because they could not consent to sex. These girls were raped or assaulted. This is not a complex concept. It's not clear how anyone benefits from demeaning the victims.

https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/how-many-jeffrey-epstein-victims-are-there.html

I can follow the argument that if they were under the legal age, they cannot consent to sex nor be 'prostitutes' (it being sexual abuse of a minor and living off immoral earnings, or 'sex trafficking' if they were forced to travel between one state and another against their will, which ipso facto it was) as they were minors so it could not have been their will.

One thing that does trouble me. Whilst two of the litigants, Virginia, a 'runaway' from family sexual abuse and Chantea, fourteen, who was living in desperate poverty in a trailer park, were easy targets for a rich sexual predator like Epstein, aged 48, with a female (Maxwell) to help in his procuring (this is what Myra Hindley did for Ian Brady) nonetheless, it is worth bearing in mind that both girls admit to going out and procuring girls for Epstein themselves. Chauntae saying she procured 'up to fifty' aged between fourteen and sixteen.

If you have suffered horribly, going out and signing up your friends sounds a little bit dissonant as they clearly colluded in helping build up Maxwell's and Epstein's stable. Presumably they are safe from prosecution being supposedly under age at the time they did this.

 

[a_unique_person]

No 60th birthday party for Prince Andrew. The Queen has cancelled it. Maybe she will abdicate soon. She doesn't like Charles and now Andrew is dead to her. Time to run away and take it easy.

 

[mgidm86]

A whole page of arguing whether or not he is one of the most prolific _____ in history. How not interesting.

Come on I need something to read, let's pick it up people!

 

[quadraginta]

The words paedophile and paedophilia are commonly used informally to describe an adult's sexual interest in pubescent or post-pubescent teenagers. It may be medically incorrect, but it's the way the word is actually used by many people.

The word is misused by many people in order to promote outrage and then repeated by many people who either don't know any better or want to continue to inflame and outrage.

The sad part is that it is unnecessary, since sexually abusing underage girls who are old enough to be sexually attractive by adults with no interest in diddling children ought to be outrageous enough all by itself, without the need to use deception and misdirection to embellish the crime..

In this sense it diminishes the actual horror of true pedophilia.

There are lots of words which are misused by many with the express intent of inflaming and outraging an audience and then continue to be misused by many in those audiences as a means to continue the outrage. Perhaps unwittingly, but that changes nothing. (Some might point out "socialism" as an example. Others might offer "racist" as another. I'm sure we could assemble a long list.)

This does not somehow magically make it okay to do so.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Yes, we were all being reserved in our judgement of Epstein until someone said pedophile and then caution was thrown out the window and now we're just virtue signalling to each other.

Thanks for showing us what sheep we all are.