Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

So women who aren't comfortable with men in the ladies room have to simply self-exclude from their own city centre. Where is the respect for women in that?

Women who aren't comfortable around black people have to self-exclude from their own city centre (or simply suck it up). That's respectful to both black people and women.

Why would it be different for transwomen?

 

[Rolfe]

To be able to apply makeup, fix their hair, maybe talk in quiet on the phone for a second, and of course pee, in a place where there's almost no risk of some drunk redneck deciding to beat the **** out of them.

They're never, ever, ever just there, like, creepily lurking. They completely blend in because they're just doing the normal bathroom things for a normal amount of time.

I've always felt like they made the women's bathrooms safer, and I bet if I were to take a poll on facebook of women my age in my city, other women would overwhelmingly agree, but Memphis is, like I said, Big Gay Historically Drag Friendly Central, and I hang with a very "social justicey" crowd, so the poll would be biased.

People who are not comfortable with them just don't go into the city limits proper anyway, and avoid "the real core city" like the plague, because it's filled people of all kinds of freaky-to-many subcultures, as well as often being the city with the highest homicide rate in the country (and we're a rather violent country!) because of poverty-related gangs and drugs.

Let's just say that's a very unusual situation and I think you'll find it travels very badly.

It takes us back into the area where women are being expected to provide the asylum (refuge, if you like) for men who for some reason feel they are not safe in the men's room. Why should this be the case? If men are dangerous, then letting men into the ladies' room is not conducive to the safety of women, despite your perception. If men are in danger from men, I contend that this is a problem for men to address, not shove on to us.

Your final paragraph confirms that this practice is causing women to self-exclude from their own spaces. I find it difficult to understand why you wouldn't see this as a problem.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If I don't want you to call me nasty names I should stop holding the opinions I hold? That's not much of an argument you know.

That's not what I said.

I said if you don't want people to tag you as a transphobe you should stop expressing your opinions in transphobic ways.

If your opinions aren't transphobic (as you say) then that shouldn't be an issue, if your opinions are transphobic then that will be an issue for you but I don't see why I should shy away from corrrectly labelling them as such.

You are quite happy calling transwomen nasty names, so I don't think you actually care about the names.

 

[Rolfe]

Women who aren't comfortable around black people have to self-exclude from their own city centre (or simply suck it up). That's respectful to both black people and women.

Why would it be different for transwomen?

Because they are men. Not that they are black or white or brown or yellow, but men.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

That is EXACTLY Archie's position. All that matters is that he labeled it transphobic, and the mere label is enough to make it so. At that point you should abandon that line of thinking and get with the program. Conform, dammit!

It's just virtue signaling. To be frank, I don't agree with you on a lot of points, here, but this sort of browbeating is unacceptable.

This is a completely dishonest post. For someone who bleats on repeatedly about wishing to engage in honest debate you don't actually do very much of it.

You might also notice that if saying something is transphobic is designed to stifle debate it's not exactly working is it? It could be a very useful learning experience. It could lead to a better standard of debate. If people were actually willing to take on board the points rather than just dismiss them.

But then if providing you ACTUAL QUOTES of something isn't enough for you to admit then I wonder what the hell actually would be?

 

[Strawberry]

Women who aren't comfortable around black people have to self-exclude from their own city centre (or simply suck it up). That's respectful to both black people and women.

Why would it be different for transwomen?

Already dealt with that point in the previous exchange. Comparing women who feel uncomfortable with men in places where they are vulnerable with racial segregation is immature, and also kinda racist in itself.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Because they are men. Not that they are black or white or brown or yellow, but men.

And that makes the difference because...?

And don't start on 'yellow' now.... there are no yellow people

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Already dealt with that point in the previous exchange. Comparing women who feel uncomfortable with men in places where they are vulnerable with racial segregation is immature, and also kinda racist in itself.

Because...

It's neither of those things actually, it's just a simple demonstration that how we deal with all cases of personal discomfort is pretty much the same. If they ain't doing you no harm you need to suck it up.

 

[Strawberry]

And that makes the difference because...?

And don't start on 'yellow' now.... there are no yellow people

You seriously need this explained to you when you're married with a kid? Seriously?

Black women are adult human females, same as women of any other race. Ditto for black men being adult human males. There are no privacy or safety reasons to segregate races in the way that there are for the sexes.

The suggestion that those two things are the same is bordering on racism itself.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Women not wanting men in spaces where we take our clothes off or pull our underwear down has nothing in common with bigots not wanting to share spaces with black or gay people. That has to be among the most immature accusations I've ever seen levied at any poster here.

Nothing in common? Really?

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/articl...-dod-working-group-gay-men-have-learned-avoid

Seems very kinda similar to me.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

There are no privacy or safety reasons to segregate races in the way that there are for the sexes.

People certainly argued that there were those reasons. But now we agree there aren't. Now this is where you show that there are legitimate reasons to segregate transwomen so that we can see that they exist and you aren't just alleging them the same as people did about black folks and homosexuals.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Archie has a wife and daughter. I'm quite surprised by his position on this.

I don't see why it should be surprising. If my daughter grew up to be trans I would want her treated with respect and dignity as with any other characteristic of hers.

 

[Strawberry]

Nothing in common? Really?

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/articl...-dod-working-group-gay-men-have-learned-avoid

Seems very kinda similar to me.

Then you are being obtuse. Gay men have been in male only spaces since time immemorial, there's no evidence throughout history that there presence poses a risk.

Inserting men with fully intact male bodies into female changing rooms and other female only spaces is a very new thing and it is already causing problems.

 

[Strawberry]

People certainly argued that there were those reasons. But now we agree there aren't. Now this is where you show that there are legitimate reasons to segregate transwomen so that we can see that they exist and you aren't just alleging them the same as people did about black folks and homosexuals.

Transwomen are male. That is the reason why they don't belong in any place where women are in a state of undress.

 

[Belz...]

This is a completely dishonest post.

It's entirely honest. It's exactly what you communicate: what Rolfe says is transphobic because you say so (you give no reason why it is transphobic except your insistence that it is), and she should stop saying it. In fact it's exactly what you said.

If that's not what you mean to communicate, then you are communicating poorly.

You might also notice that if saying something is transphobic is designed to stifle debate it's not exactly working is it?

It's working perfectly. We're not discussing the topic anymore, are we?

But then if providing you ACTUAL QUOTES of something isn't enough for you to admit then I wonder what the hell actually would be?

The ACTUAL QUOTES don't support your INTERPRETATION of them. You are again calling something transphobic by fiat.

 

[Strawberry]

I don't see why it should be surprising. If my daughter grew up to be trans I would want her treated with respect and dignity as with any other characteristic of hers.

If your daughter grew up to be trans she would still be safer in the ladies room because you know as well as I do that she would still be female.

 

[Belz...]

Transwomen are male. That is the reason why they don't belong in any place where women are in a state of undress.

What's odd about all this is that the same people who are telling us how horrible men are have no issue with them put with women in vulnerable situations as soon as they claim to be women themselves.

One wonders what a 'man' is to them.

And in the end, again it does a disservice to both women and trans people.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If your daughter grew up to be trans she would still be safer in the ladies room because you know as well as I do that she would still be female.

I wouldn't be in favour of you deciding where she would go or what is best for her, thanks.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Then you are being obtuse. Gay men have been in male only spaces since time immemorial, there's no evidence throughout history that there presence poses a risk.

Inserting men with fully intact male bodies into female changing rooms and other female only spaces is a very new thing and it is already causing problems.

So where's the evidence then? Not anecdote. Not scare mongering. Actual evidence.

Nobody should be behaving inappropriately in any place and if they are they should be removed.

 

[Strawberry]

I wouldn't be in favour of you deciding where she would go or what is best for her, thanks.

If you want her to start going into the men's room I would have to seriously question your judgement as a parent.