Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed?

[Darat]

Aaaaaaand....what evidence and calculations would those be?



The OP asks for conclusions about Ms Thurnberg, specifically if she is deeply disturbed or a brave campaigner. I assume the OP is either requesting clairvoyance, long-distance psychoanalysis, or ...just possibly... opinions.



Can we further assume that you are not asking for evidence and calculations, and that you are pulling out the famed ISF 'Scientific Rigor Only When Convenient And Utterly Inapplicable' card?



Please specify what 'calculations' are appropriate for me to have an opinion.

Just went from what you posted for example:

.....Again, if her mission is the lowered carbon footprint, how much more is she wasting rather than jump on a flight's available seat? That's the cold math at play, that an actual advocate would factor in.....

I'd like to see that "cold math".

 

[Thermal]

Well, it would seem many people are unaware of it, intentionally or not. She's putting pressure on lawmakers to act, which is why she's perceived as a threat by deniers.



Is "listen to the scientists" parroting a message? Maybe you should sue her for copyright infringement? Seems to me the sour grapes you are exhibiting could mean you fancy yourself a better communicator on this issue than Greta.

'Listen to the scientists' is certainly nothing new. The people she is speaking to have already listened to the scientists. We need to go to the next step, not keep rehashing the same ones to feel good. I would sincerely doubt that anyone is feeling real pressure from Greta's speaking. Lots of smiling and nodding, though, I imagine.

And of course, I never said a word about being a better communicator than Ms Thunberg, so strawman FTW. I guess that 'signals' the end of any pretense at a constructive exchange, yes?

 

[crescent]

Just went from what you posted for example:

.....Again, if her mission is the lowered carbon footprint, how much more is she wasting rather than jump on a flight's available seat? That's the cold math at play, that an actual advocate would factor in.....

I'd like to see that "cold math".

I am curious how common empty seats are on trans-Atlantic flights.

I am not the most prolific flyer, but I've made about a half dozen round-trip transatlantic flights and can only remember ever seeing one empty seat. I flew from the Western U.S. (Las Vegas and San Francisco) on non-stop flights to London, Paris, Amsterdam, and Frankfurt (mostly Frankfurt though). Maybe the shorter flights to/from the East coast have more empty seats, but the ones from the West seem to have few, if any.

They are pretty good about filling up those empty seats these days.

 

[Thermal]

Just went from what you posted for example:

.....Again, if her mission is the lowered carbon footprint, how much more is she wasting rather than jump on a flight's available seat? That's the cold math at play, that an actual advocate would factor in.....

I'd like to see that "cold math".

The 'Scientific Rigor Only When Convenient and Utterly Inapplicable' card it is, then.

eta: such uncompromising skepticism must surely be applied across the whole thread, n'est-ce pas? I must have missed your posts regarding quantifiable data for the impact Thunberg has made, and the psychoanalytic evaluations and all the rest. Surely, you are not suddenly employing skepticism for this sole inconsequential comment? Right?

 

[Thermal]

I am curious how common empty seats are on trans-Atlantic flights.

I am not the most prolific flyer, but I've made about a half dozen round-trip transatlantic flights and can only remember ever seeing one empty seat. I flew from the Western U.S. (Las Vegas and San Francisco) on non-stop flights to London, Paris, Amsterdam, and Frankfurt (mostly Frankfurt though). Maybe the shorter flights to/from the East coast have more empty seats, but the ones from the West seem to have few, if any.

They are pretty good about filling up those empty seats these days.

My wife went from Philly to London a couple years ago and sent pics of the plane at maybe 3/4 capacity. She was told it was normal in the off season. In fairness, things may have changed.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Just checked Google Flights for a trip for five adults from NYC to London right now. Next one goes in a good half an hour, the list is long. Not non-stop, not the cheapest, but the seats are just empty waiting for Greta and her entourage to save the planet.

 

[Thermal]

Just checked Google Flights for a trip for five adults from NYC to London right now. Next one goes in a good half an hour, the list is long. Not non-stop, not the cheapest, but the seats are just empty waiting for Greta and her entourage to save the planet.

And that is essentially my argument (which assumed the available seats). Air travel is mass transit, and it is going with or without her. She and her crew might decrease fuel efficiency a bit, which could be calculated as increased carbon footprint, I suppose. But I would weigh out the fractionally decreased fuel efficiency against putting her posse up for days on the road in terms of real-world carbon impact.

 

[theprestige]

I'm sure everyone understands that even after we institute a drastic emissions reduction regime, there will still be good reasons for important people to travel by air.

Ms Thunberg is caught on the horns of a dilemma. On the one hand, we can certainly justify people with power, influence, and expertise traveling by air to conduct important business quickly. If Greta's presence at COP25 fits this criteria, then she should be the first to recognize that it's okay for her to board a plane to get there.

On the other hand, part of the important work is setting an example. So she should avoid air travel if possible. But the solution seems like it should be obvious even to a sixteen year-old: Pick up a phone, call a travel agency, and book passage on a freighter bound from North America to Europe.

Indeed, I'm surprised she (or some grown-up in her entourage) hasn't had the foresight to make these arrangements already. The truth is that most people can't depend on a prince of Monaco to ferry them around on a luxury sailboat. Most people will have to either stay home or find a cargo ship going their way. If Ms Thunberg wants to set an example, why doesn't she have more to say about the practicalities of freighter passage?

---

Incidentally, how was she planning to get from San Francisco to Santiago in the first place? Plane? Ship? Car? Rail? For that matter, how did she get from New York to San Francisco in the first place?

 

[Childlike Empress]

For that matter, how did she get from New York to San Francisco in the first place?

Arnold Schwarzenegger provided her a Tesla. Not kidding.

 

[wobs]

Sweden's airport operator has reported a 9% drop in usage. Meanwhile, rail services in the same area has seen an increase of about the same amount. It is thought that the Great effect has been a major factor (flight shaming).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ravel-as-greta-effect-takes-off-idUSKBN1WH23G

The overall trend is one of growth though. But her effect has shown to be noticeable for now.

 

[crescent]

Just checked Google Flights for a trip for five adults from NYC to London right now. Next one goes in a good half an hour, the list is long. Not non-stop, not the cheapest, but the seats are just empty waiting for Greta and her entourage to save the planet.

If nobody buys those tickets do those seats go empty, or do they go to people flying standby (who then get bumped when someone else pays full price)? For that matter, how do we know the flight isn't selling tickets to overbook the flight?

I hat to be nickpicky, but showing that seats are available for purchase does not mean that seats would be empty. They routinely sell more tickets than they have seats.

 

[Thermal]

If nobody buys those tickets do those seats go empty, or do they go to people flying standby (who then get bumped when someone else pays full price)? For that matter, how do we know the flight isn't selling tickets to overbook the flight?

I hat to be nickpicky, but showing that seats are available for purchase does not mean that seats would be empty. They routinely sell more tickets than they have seats.

High demand cheap flights are notorious for overlooking, as filling every seat is imperative for profit. The prices on CE's flights were not exactly el cheapo. When my wife flew, they stayed empty.

The point of all that is that it may well be lower impact to fly, but the stunt requires they not. Better to go on the Prince's unnecessarily carbon footprinting yacht, whose frivolous construction knocked a big dent in the planet. Looks better, though.

 

[Childlike Empress]

If nobody buys those tickets do those seats go empty, or do they go to people flying standby (who then get bumped when someone else pays full price)? For that matter, how do we know the flight isn't selling tickets to overbook the flight?

I hat to be nickpicky, but showing that seats are available for purchase does not mean that seats would be empty. They routinely sell more tickets than they have seats.

I'm no expert on this, what do you mean by "standby"? I asked "fly me and four other adults from NYC to London ASAP" and the Google oracle answered with "no problem, in half an hour there's a flight with five seats for you". Do you think they kick out other people if I pay enough? I doubt it. I think Thermal's argument is reasonable and that the outcome of the way I tried to check the situation supports it.

If "you" want to fly on existing flights with empty seats, check last minute and don't expect it to be cheap or fast (the next flight had a stop of several hours in Portugal), but it will be almost at no extra cost for the environment except what the plane needs for the 50 kilos extra weight for Greta and her iPhone.

 

[crescent]

I'm no expert on this, what do you mean by "standby"? I asked "fly me and four other adults from NYC to London ASAP" and the Google oracle answered with "no problem, in half an hour there's a flight with five seats for you". Do you think they kick out other people if I pay enough?

Yes, they sort of. They might. That's what standby is. It is not so much that they kick people off, but that they have people waiting at the gate to claim those empty seats. Those people have already purchased tickets to later flights or are flying under various special provisions for airline employees or their families. Any seats that are still unsold at the last moment go to these standby passengers. If all the seats sell, even at the last moment, the standby passengers "stand by" for the next available flight (which might just be the one they were originally scheduled for).

These are people who may be switching flights or using tickets not generally available to the public. Depending on the specifics, they may only fly if seats don't get sold at full price, or if paying passengers miss the flight. So if Greta does not buy those last five tickets, they may instead go to people flying standby. This creates unsold seat space in the flight the standby people were originally scheduled for. Conversely, if she buys tickets at the last moment, the standby passenger needs to wait for the next flight. Either way, it gives the airlines the last minute options it needs to make the flights as full as possible.

Flying Standby 2019: Your Complete Guide

Generally speaking, your standby priority increases if you have elite status with the airline and have purchased a more expensive fare; you’ll be lower on the totem pole if you aren’t a frequent flyer and booked the cheapest economy flight.

Another important thing to remember when it comes to flying standby is that you aren’t truly confirmed until the plane leaves the gate. If a higher status passenger arrives at the gate and wants to standby, even if you already have a boarding pass, the airline technically reserves the right to bump you to the next flight, although recent controversies surrounding this practice might make that a slightly less likely eventuality.

What It Means to "Fly Standby" and How to Do It

But, as you'd expect, you'll have to wait at the airport until a flight has an open seat.

If you're using a buddy pass, be prepared to stay for the last flight of the day, since airlines will place paying customers first. And don't give up or leave until the flight you're trying to get on actually takes off; you never know when last-minute changes might occur.

What are my others options for cheaper, flexible travel?
Airlines have become eerily efficient at filling up planes, which has given them greater leverage to keep prices high and steady.

 

[cullennz]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31788-4/fulltext

I've already posted this several times.

You didn't read it then.

Why should I believe you're interested in reading it?

I read a couple pages worth, but it seems more about nutrition than not eating meat will have any major effect on climate change.

If there are actual figures, sumarising them in a couple of paragraphs would be nice.

 

[cullennz]

She has kickstarted a global movment and kept climate change on the front page - pretty much single-handedly. Not impressive enough for you.

Lol

Geezes

Yes because no one thought about climate change before she was the glint in the milk mans eye

 

[cullennz]

The request for calculations came from the statement that flying across the Atlantic might just be Thunberg's best option, carbon wise.

The problem is we don't know how big the Thunberg show is, We know there's daddy Thunberg so there's two flights at least but if she's got a film crew and a team of publicists it might just be better for the planet if we bung them all in a shipping container and load them onto a cargo boat.

https://qz.com/1741155/greta-thunbergs-options-for-crossing-the-atlantic-again/

We know a crew of 5 flew over to bring the boat back and the original captain flew back.

So it was more than just her and her old man catching a stand-by (spare seats) flight to NY my quite a margin

 

[Giordano]

I like the concept that if you book a seat after an airline flight is already scheduled you can pat yourself on the back for having contributed zero carbon footprint. You don't share the environment cost - the moral burden is exclusively on those who booked earlier and filled the flight sufficiently to have the airline commit to it. Fascinating to contemplate! What if some of the early bookers cancel and now your booking is what helps retain the scheduled flight? Have you been sucked into the guilty?

Beyond these philosophical musings one's weight does require extra fuel to fly it. Obviously depends on the plane, etc. but average is 30 to 40 guilty liters per 1000 kilometers. Sorry!

 

[Giordano]

Many say we all know about climate change so we don't need to hear any more and Thunberg should just shut up! They are tired of it, and what's the point! A good argument if we were actually adequately addressing climate change. Yet we aren't. We are already in bad straits and worse is on the horizon. Sounds to me we need more agitators and goads, including 16 year olds who point out that we are threatening the lives of our own children.

 

[lionking]

'Listen to the scientists' is certainly nothing new. The people she is speaking to have already listened to the scientists. We need to go to the next step, not keep rehashing the same ones to feel good. I would sincerely doubt that anyone is feeling real pressure from Greta's speaking. Lots of smiling and nodding, though, I imagine.

And of course, I never said a word about being a better communicator than Ms Thunberg, so strawman FTW. I guess that 'signals' the end of any pretense at a constructive exchange, yes?

You keep on saying this, yet there are deniers everywhere, including leaders of important countries. You won’t get hardcore deniers marching in the street, but people around them can and do change their minds, and when it gets to a certain level governments take action. It’s happened countless times. Vietnam is a classic example.