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UK - December 2019 General Election

Is it your belief, then, that everybody always votes the same way in every election, and that it would be impossible for there to be a swing of 5% from one election to the next? Do you not think that needing a swing of 5% would make it closer to a marginal constituency.

The circumstances you are talking about are so far out of reality that they are largely irrelevant but you are talking about a situation where we moved heaven and earth to unseat a Tory and still failed by a large margin. Getting another 5 percent swing on top of never in a lifetime results isnt close to realistic

And given that it's not going to happen its completely irrelevant to whether MY individual vote matters on this occasion.
 
And one extra vote is going to have no impact on that outcome either. It's not even a rounding error in the percentages.

One vote is not going to have an influence on the outcome of any election. It's a collective activity. That doesn't make individual votes unimportant. Because individual votes add up to larger totals. That's literally the concept behind voting.
 
The circumstances you are talking about are so far out of reality that they are largely irrelevant but you are talking about a situation where we moved heaven and earth to unseat a Tory and still failed by a large margin. Getting another 5 percent swing on top of never in a lifetime results isnt close to realistic

And given that it's not going to happen its completely irrelevant to whether MY individual vote matters on this occasion.

I feel like you're choosing deliberately to miss the point. The point isn't that this particular seat would be won in this particular set of circumstances, it's that choosing not to vote makes a difference, just as choosing who to vote for makes a difference.

Again, I feel like I have to explain to you what voting is and how it works, but I'm sure that besides your arguments in this thread you actually do understand the concept.
 
Boris Johnson has ruled out granting permission for a second vote on Scottish independence while he is prime minister.

Mr Johnson said his government would not give the go-ahead for another legally-binding referendum.

The Tory leader claimed the issue had been settled in a "once-in-a-generation" vote in 2014.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50280817

That is as expected, he is at least being consistent and the two recent referendums are being treated as they were put forward, as once in a generation.
 
Johnson has also promised 40 new hospitals in 10 years, in an interview on Sky News. Along with the 20,000 police officers by 2021, we are seeing what happened during Brexit. Bold claims that cannot be expected to actually happen. Or, is it just more lying?
 
Johnson has also promised 40 new hospitals in 10 years, in an interview on Sky News. Along with the 20,000 police officers by 2021, we are seeing what happened during Brexit. Bold claims that cannot be expected to actually happen. Or, is it just more lying?

It's more lying:

https://fullfact.org/health/six-hospitals-not-forty

Edit:

Sky have uploaded the interview to YouTube, the hospital bit starts at 12 minutes



IMO he does a bad job at defending the claim, trying to deflect and change the point to have a go at Corbyn
 
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Johnson has also promised 40 new hospitals in 10 years, in an interview on Sky News. Along with the 20,000 police officers by 2021, we are seeing what happened during Brexit. Bold claims that cannot be expected to actually happen. Or, is it just more lying?

Lying.

"What can you expect from a pig, except a grunt?"
 
The next election will be won by the party which does the most convincing lying about what it will deliver. In the same way brexit was won by the most convincing liars.
 
One vote is not going to have an influence on the outcome of any election. It's a collective activity. That doesn't make individual votes unimportant. Because individual votes add up to larger totals. That's literally the concept behind voting.

We are not going to convince each other but given that you have now agreed that it doesn't matter a jot if any 1 individual votes can you see why its rather silly to dismiss their views on the result because of it?
 
I feel like you're choosing deliberately to miss the point. The point isn't that this particular seat would be won in this particular set of circumstances, it's that choosing not to vote makes a difference, just as choosing who to vote for makes a difference.

Again, I feel like I have to explain to you what voting is and how it works, but I'm sure that besides your arguments in this thread you actually do understand the concept.

I am not missing the point, it's just that you repeatedly asserting it isn't convincing me.

Given that i have stated again and again that i dont buy the old canard that if you dont vote you don't get to complain you have so far failed to give any justification for it.

I know it's one of those things that seems like it makes sense, but it really doesn't. The people who dont get to complain are the people who voted FOR the ********.
 
Boris Johnson has ruled out granting permission for a second vote on Scottish independence while he is prime minister.

Mr Johnson said his government would not give the go-ahead for another legally-binding referendum.

The Tory leader claimed the issue had been settled in a "once-in-a-generation" vote in 2014.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50280817

It's slightly annoying that the SNP position on this seems to simply be that he can't say no, when he damn well can. Appreciate they have to play that up because it increases support foe independence but they should also be clear on what the Plan B is.

The next Scottish election should be run on a platform of pushing ahead with independence regardless of Westminster support or not.
 
We are not going to convince each other but given that you have now agreed that it doesn't matter a jot if any 1 individual votes can you see why its rather silly to dismiss their views on the result because of it?

I have to agree with Squeegee Beckenheim here, as I have on record on this forum more than once speaking up against the "my vote doesn't make a difference, so I won't bother" approach.

This is true only if you take the rather strict position that the 'outcome' of the election is purely who won, and no other information is pertinent or valuable.

My view is that, on the contrary, all the information is important. Not only who won, who who didn't - a minor candidate who gets a respectable share of the vote can bolster a position in other, future elections. A major candidate who wins by a large majority is a different outcome to one who just squeaks through. A large majority may fuel a more robust campaign from opposition parties in the future, it may make them give up, but it's not irrelevant. All this is rather negated if large amounts of people don't bother to vote.

"I'm not going to vote, because my chosen candidate never wins" seems to me like classic circular reasoning. Get out there and vote. They may not win this time, they may not win next time, they may never win. But they're definitely not going to win if you never vote for them. This becomes all the more important in PR elections, where the overall result can vary quite a lot from the headline 'first' vote results.

The outcome of an election is not 'who won'. It's a much richer, wider, more nuanced picture made up of all sorts of quantitative and qualitative information.
 
I have to agree with Squeegee Beckenheim here, as I have on record on this forum more than once speaking up against the "my vote doesn't make a difference, so I won't bother" approach.

This is true only if you take the rather strict position that the 'outcome' of the election is purely who won, and no other information is pertinent or valuable.

My view is that, on the contrary, all the information is important. Not only who won, who who didn't - a minor candidate who gets a respectable share of the vote can bolster a position in other, future elections. A major candidate who wins by a large majority is a different outcome to one who just squeaks through. A large majority may fuel a more robust campaign from opposition parties in the future, it may make them give up, but it's not irrelevant. All this is rather negated if large amounts of people don't bother to vote.

"I'm not going to vote, because my chosen candidate never wins" seems to me like classic circular reasoning. Get out there and vote. They may not win this time, they may not win next time, they may never win. But they're definitely not going to win if you never vote for them. This becomes all the more important in PR elections, where the overall result can vary quite a lot from the headline 'first' vote results.

The outcome of an election is not 'who won'. It's a much richer, wider, more nuanced picture made up of all sorts of quantitative and qualitative information.

Exactly, plus if everyone voted then the overall proportion of votes across the country may well highlight the problem with FPTP and strengthen the argument for a (proper) PR system.

I live in one of the safest Labour seats in the country and rarely vote Labour but I always vote - if nothing else I helped a candidate I agreed with, save their deposit last time. We have never told our kids who to vote for but impressed on them the importance of voting. Personally I think we should have the Australian system and it be compulsory.
 
One Conservative candidate is in hot water for saying on Facebook what doubtless many Tories think or say in private:

A Conservative general election candidate has apologised for a Facebook post in which she said people on a TV show needed "putting down".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50283520

Labour called for the candidate to be dropped.

But Welsh Conservative chairman Byron Davies has stood by Ms O'Brien, who is still set to run in the general election on 12 December.
 
I have to agree with Squeegee Beckenheim here, as I have on record on this forum more than once speaking up against the "my vote doesn't make a difference, so I won't bother" approach.

This is true only if you take the rather strict position that the 'outcome' of the election is purely who won, and no other information is pertinent or valuable.

My view is that, on the contrary, all the information is important. Not only who won, who who didn't - a minor candidate who gets a respectable share of the vote can bolster a position in other, future elections. A major candidate who wins by a large majority is a different outcome to one who just squeaks through. A large majority may fuel a more robust campaign from opposition parties in the future, it may make them give up, but it's not irrelevant. All this is rather negated if large amounts of people don't bother to vote.

"I'm not going to vote, because my chosen candidate never wins" seems to me like classic circular reasoning. Get out there and vote. They may not win this time, they may not win next time, they may never win. But they're definitely not going to win if you never vote for them. This becomes all the more important in PR elections, where the overall result can vary quite a lot from the headline 'first' vote results.

The outcome of an election is not 'who won'. It's a much richer, wider, more nuanced picture made up of all sorts of quantitative and qualitative information.

Deary me, it's like the last 2 days never happened. All of this has been dealt with.
 
We are not going to convince each other but given that you have now agreed that it doesn't matter a jot if any 1 individual votes can you see why its rather silly to dismiss their views on the result because of it?

No. Why would the one affect the other? The person voting is still choosing not to have their say.
 

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