UK - December 2019 General Election

[Vixen]

No, I don't have a say anyway. I'm choosing not to pretend that I do.

Not voting is not the same as saying 'anything is fine' so at best in your analogy it's like going out with a group of 30m friends, not saying anything when asked where you want to eat and then moaning that most of them said 'McDonalds' which is literally the worst of all possible choices.

Me saying 'let's eat at the local restaurant that does really nice food' would have made zero difference to the end result, and even if I had said 'Nandos' there wouldn't have been enough to change the result and I don't bloody like Nandos either.

This whole conversation is just a tired old propping up of a broken system and an excuse to dismiss legitimate complaints because they don't suit your narrative.

Rewarding futile gestures is not a very useful activity. Nor is telling people they have to choose one when being offered three different kinds of turd to eat.

If all you have in your area is McDonalds and Nandos then why not start up your own, based on what you perceive is a gap in the market?

Likewise, why not stand as a councillor yourself?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'm not arguing that in the slightest. I'm not arguing that other people shouldn't vote.

I didn't say you were. I said that you said that individual votes don't make a difference.

I'm arguing simply and clearly that my vote will make no difference, and that other people voting Tory are often voting against their own best interests.

And it's being explained to you that your vote does make a difference, even if you're voting for a candidate who can't win, and that abstaining from the vote is also acting against your own self-interests.

I think you know this, really. You know it because you're saying that there's zero chance that the incumbent Conservative MP can be voted out, yet you're still dismissing the idea of voting for the Lib Dem candidate. If your vote truly doesn't matter, why not vote for the Lib Dem candidate? Why not vote for the Tory, for that matter? It won't make a difference anyway, right?

For the record my constituency had a 75% turnout last time and a 42.5% lead for the Tory candidate. So you tell me what difference turning up to vote makes in the face of that?

It demonstrates that there is opposition to them, and that it's worth other people's time to get out and vote.

And why the 800 people who voted for the loathesome UKIP candidate deserve to be listened to and the non-voters don't.

Because they took the opportunity to have their say and you didn't. You don't oppose viewpoints you disagree with by abstaining from making your feelings known. You're actively choosing not to oppose UKIP, but then trying to reserve the right to be taken seriously when you wail and gnash your teeth about their percentage of the vote.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Even worse the people who think spoiling your paper means something more important than not voting.

That is indeed a more legitimate as a form of protest, because at least it's distinguishable from apathy.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If all you have in your area is McDonalds and Nandos then why not start up your own, based on what you perceive is a gap in the market?

Because nobody will vote for me because they are all Tories round here! Is this International Let's Spin Out Nonsensical Platitudes Day? There is no gap in the market. The market is taken by McDonalds and Nandos and the majority of people are quite happy with that because they are ******* idiots.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

That is indeed a more legitimate as a form of protest, because at least it's distinguishable from apathy.

But not distinguishable from stupidity.

Seriously have you even thought this through?

1000 people driving to the polling station to waste a vote on Green is going to be wonderfully counter-productive. 1000 people driving there to spoil their papers instead is laughable.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I didn't say you were. I said that you said that individual votes don't make a difference.

Which I didn't say either. I said a section of individual votes don't make a difference

And it's being explained to you that your vote does make a difference, even if you're voting for a candidate who can't win, and that abstaining from the vote is also acting against your own self-interests.

It hasn't been explained. It's been asserted. Without evidence or argument.

I think you know this, really. You know it because you're saying that there's zero chance that the incumbent Conservative MP can be voted out, yet you're still dismissing the idea of voting for the Lib Dem candidate. If your vote truly doesn't matter, why not vote for the Lib Dem candidate? Why not vote for the Tory, for that matter? It won't make a difference anyway, right?

No, I really don't know this. Yes, it really will make no difference if I vote Tory. But I am not going out in the cold to vote for someone I disagree with. Because that would be stupid.

It demonstrates that there is opposition to them, and that it's worth other people's time to get out and vote.

Except it doesn't because it isn't. In cases where it does because it is then it's a different situation.

Because they took the opportunity to have their say and you didn't. You don't oppose viewpoints you disagree with by abstaining from making your feelings known. You're actively choosing not to oppose UKIP, but then trying to reserve the right to be taken seriously when you wail and gnash your teeth about their percentage of the vote.

Yeah, still repeating the same thing without any reason isn't helping. It matters because it matters isn't an argument.

Validating a broken system because you have some faint sense that it matters but can't really explain why is pointless and counter-productive in many ways.

And when I am down the foodbank listening to people complain I am much more likely to give creedence to someone who didn't vote at all than someone who voted Tory if they complain about having to use it.

 

[Nessie]

Tony Blair got a victory because he cosied up to the right wing media with right wing policies. And because the opposition were in a bit of a mess and had been in power for 18 years.

The 'cool Britannia' thing was a media invention.

It was time for a change and a barrage of Tory sleaze stories had turned many people against them.

 

[Vixen]

Because nobody will vote for me because they are all Tories round here! Is this International Let's Spin Out Nonsensical Platitudes Day? There is no gap in the market. The market is taken by McDonalds and Nandos and the majority of people are quite happy with that because they are ******* idiots.

Usually, the only reason a candidate has a massive majority is because they have 'celebrity' status (for example, Theresa May or Vince Cable). Find your own 'superstar' and persuade your local Labour/Green/LibDem/Whatever to stand them as a candidate.

Subway found a gap in the market. So can you.

 

[Nessie]

Usually, the only reason a candidate has a massive majority is because they have 'celebrity' status (for example, Theresa May or Vince Cable). Find your own 'superstar' and persuade your local Labour/Green/LibDem/Whatever to stand them as a candidate.

Subway found a gap in the market. So can you.

You make it sound oh so easy, you do it.

 

[Vixen]

You make it sound oh so easy, you do it.

I'm not Mr Grumpy Stay-at-Home Curmudgeon.

 

[Garrison]

He will not be seen to give in, but that's different from what he actually does. A formal pact made publicly? Unlikely. A backroom nod and wink to go easy on his pals in certain areas, very likely.

We will see Brexit Party candidates withdraw from seats I have no doubt.

But if that was what Farage actually wanted then they would have been having some private meeting already, making the demand in such a public way is pretty much a guarantee it doesn't happen. Why people persist in thinking Farage/Johnson/Cummings are Machiavellian strategists with some masterplan in the face of all evidence to the contrary is beyond me.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

No, I really don't know this. Yes, it really will make no difference if I vote Tory. But I am not going out in the cold to vote for someone I disagree with. Because that would be stupid.

So when you said that you wouldn't vote for the Lib Dem candidate out of principle, what you really meant is that you wouldn't vote for a Lib Dem candidate because it's likely to be cold? Come on.

You're now reduced to playing stupid and hand-waving away counterarguments with "sez you! Nuh-uh!"

You're not convincing me that I should take your opinions seriously, and you're not convincing me that enabling an outcome you don't want by abstaining isn't functionally equivalent to enabling an outcome you don't want by voting for it. So feel free to abstain, should you so choose. I will reserve my right to not take your opinion on the result of the election seriously and to consider you a hypocrite for having a go at people for voting against their own self-interest.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

So when you said that you wouldn't vote for the Lib Dem candidate out of principle, what you really meant is that you wouldn't vote for a Lib Dem candidate because it's likely to be cold? Come on.

No, I said 'someone I disagree with' Jesus.

You're now reduced to playing stupid and hand-waving away counterarguments with "sez you! Nuh-uh!"

Well yes because that's literally all you have got. Repeated assertions that don't stand up to any scrutiny or basic arithmetic.

You're not convincing me that I should take your opinions seriously, and you're not convincing me that enabling an outcome you don't want by abstaining isn't functionally equivalent to enabling an outcome you don't want by voting for it.

Well yes it isn't. But not enabling it by not voting for it is different from enabling it by voting for it because you think you do want it even though it goes against your actual best interests. Which is what I was actually talking about.

So feel free to abstain, should you so choose. I will reserve my right to not take your opinion on the result of the election seriously and to consider you a hypocrite for having a go at people for voting against their own self-interest.

Indeed, you like everyone else, is entitled to their opinion no matter how loony or contrary to actual evidence they may be. It doesn't mean it deserves any respect though.

 

[Rolfe]

I think it's reasonable to acknowledge that in many constituencies the result is a foregone conclusion. I can totally sympathise with someone in such a constituency who simply doesn't want to add his vote to the tally of a party he has serious issues with but which might be a less worse option than a different party.

If you're in a marginal constituency then it's perhaps more incumbent on you to decide who is the least worst and go and give them your vote. But if you know the result of your constituency in advance, what's the point if you basically hate all of them to a greater or lesser extent?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

But if that was what Farage actually wanted then they would have been having some private meeting already, making the demand in such a public way is pretty much a guarantee it doesn't happen. Why people persist in thinking Farage/Johnson/Cummings are Machiavellian strategists with some masterplan in the face of all evidence to the contrary is beyond me.

I don't know if they are Macciavellian strategists but I do know you can't trust a word they say. Given that they both seem to want a no deal Brexit then I would imagine they will co-operate to achieve the hardest brexit they can muster because the alternative is that they drop the ball and lose Brexit altogether.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A Tory guide to fracking:

Not reasons to stop it.
Causes earthquakes
Toxic chemicals in water
Air pollution
Soil pollution
Severe consequences for environment

Reason to stop it (temporary)
May lose us votes in election

 

[Information Analyst]

Why people persist in thinking Farage/Johnson/Cummings are Machiavellian strategists with some masterplan in the face of all evidence to the contrary is beyond me.

I think there's enough evidence that Cummings thinks he has a plan, even if it's actually a load of bollocks due to his distorted view of the world. Similar, in fact, to the way Nash's work was distorted by his own paranoid schizophrenia.

 

[Arcade22]

Labour would introduce tough new standards forcing housebuilders to make new properties zero carbon within three years, Jeremy Corbyn is to announce.

The last Labour government introduced regulations to make all homes zero carbon by 2016, but the rules were scrapped by David Cameron less than a year before they were due to come into force.

Now, Labour says it would create a new “zero-carbon standard” to ensure new homes make no positive contribution to greenhouse emissions. The standard would be introduced by 2022.

...


Zero-carbon homes have to be so efficient and well insulated that they can generate as much energy as they use, leading to an expected cut of up to £200 a year from household energy bills.
The regulations would not specify how the target should be achieved – but it would be likely to result in many more homes being fitted with solar panels, better insulation, and energy-saving alternatives to traditional gas boilers, such as heat pumps.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/01/labour-would-make-all-new-homes-zero-carbon-by-2022

Reality check: there's a very good reason why everyone isn't building "carbon neutral" buildings: it's very expensive. The amount of money that's saved on heating and power is a drop in the bucket compared to the extra costs on building and maintaining the house itself, and that emits green-house gases too. It's not like you can ignore the cost of building said solar panels or heat pumps.

 

[Mojo]

A Tory guide to fracking:

Not reasons to stop it.
Causes earthquakes
Toxic chemicals in water
Air pollution
Soil pollution
Severe consequences for environment

Reason to say we’ll stop it
May lose us votes in election

FTFY

 

[Nessie]

Farage is not going to stand in the election.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50278984

"Speaking about his decision not to stand in December's poll, Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage says he thought "very hard" about "how to serve the cause of Brexit best".

"I don't want to be in politics for the rest of my life," he says.

But he says he will be going out "across the country" with the Brexit Party's message.

He also says he has been wanting to form a "Leave alliance" for months, adding: "I still hope and pray it happens, but it doesn't look like it will."