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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

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Mitochondria are interesting beasties. The remnants of intracellular parasitic bacteria. They live in the cytoplasm outside of the nucleus. They reproduce by binary fission like bacteria. Mitochondria have chemically different DNA from eukaryote (animals etc.) nuclear DNA, their DNA is the same as bacterial DNA. Consequently the chemistry needed to do PCR on mitochondrial DNA is different from nuclear DNA which is why is has to be done as a separate test. As mitochondria are extranuclear they don't do sex. Only the nucleus gets involved in sex, so only the nuclear DNA (where the chromosomes live including X and Y) gets to interchange material during sexual reproduction. As mitochondria sit in the cytoplasm, they proceed from mother to child as only the ovum contributes cytoplasm, the sperm only donates a 'hemi-nucleus' of DNA. So all* humans carry their mother's mitochondria.

We are actually symbionts the products of two different species that set up home together. Interestingly the DNA needed for placental formation was left behind by a virus, so not only are humans a mix of species but they are dependant on viral genes to reproduce. We are literally chimeras.

*I believe there has been at least one child where the cytoplasm ie mitochondria was donated from one woman, and the nuclear DNA from a different woman and a man.So it may depend on your definition of mother.

It's quite possible that some guilters may lack knowledge of the differences in mtDNA and nuclear DNA.

However, since there was no testing of mtDNA in the Kercher case, mtDNA is not relevant.

As most poster and lurkers here are well aware, the Y chromosome is found in the nucleus, and is one of the two sex chromosomes in typical human males, and is derived from the father's sperm; the other sex chromosome in human males is the X chromosome, derived from the mother's egg (ovum).

Typical human females also have two sex chromosomes, consisting of an X from the mother and an X from the father.

The forensic significance of these differences in sex chromosomes is that it is possible because of them to distinguish a relatively small number of male-source cells, such as epithelial or sperm cells deposited inside a female's vagina or present elsewhere on her body, from the many female-source cells of the victim.

The relevance to the Kercher case, and the Knox - Sollecito case, is that Stefanoni did do such differential DNA profile testing for the rape kit. Stefanoni presented the finding that Rudy Guede's Y DNA profile was found in Kercher's vagina; the presence of no other male's DNA was reported as found in the rape kit, demonstrating he was the sole participant in sexual attack on Kercher.

The results provided (and also those suppressed) by Stefanoni may be seen at:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/lab-data-suppression/

Batch One 5-6 November 2007
Samples 12a - 13b
 
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Quick logical translation needed

It's Liviero's testimony that's the sticky one. This is Liviero's testimony directly from the original text. It seems to me that Mignini or Ghirga is asking what objective, scientific and medical elements can hypothesis the presence of one or more people. Liviero is replying emphatically that there are "there are none" in both Google and Italian reverso translations. Even the Massei report concludes that Liviero couldn't articulate one way or the other I would much appreciate it if there is an Italian speaker who can give a quick logical clean-up of this for the record.

DOMANDA - Dinamica omicidiaria uno o più soggetti, lo detrae,
uno o più persone, lo detrae da elementi scientifici. Se
ce li vuole ridire quali sono gli elementi obiettivi,
scientifici, medico legali da cui lei può ipotizzare la
presenza di più persone.
RISPOSTA - Allora scientifici le devo rispondere che non ce ne
sono, perché le ecchimosi digitate possono essere
prodotte dalla stessa mano, certamente anche se io ne
conto circa una decina. Quindi sicuramente sono due
mani. Egualmente lo stesso può aver sospeso un soggetto,
intendendo un soggetto, un unico aggressore. Può aver
sospeso l'attività con le mani, quindi questa di
strozzamento, aver preso il coltello e ferito la
ragazza, prima ancora aver prodotto le lesioni a carico
ecchimotica a carico di entrambi gli arti superiori e
degli arti inferiori. Appare anche intuitiva ma senza
scientificamente, l'esperienza serve pure al medico
legale, l’intuito e l'esperienza lo dovrebbero guidare
oltre gli elementi tecnici. Appare difficilmente
sostenibile che questo quadro lesivo così importante sia
stata prodotta da un'unica persona, ma se lei dichiara
quali sono gli elementi scientifici, gli elementi
scientifici non ci sono.

Italian reverso:
QUESTION - One or more subjects, one or more persons, deducts it from scientific elements. If you want to tell us again what are the objective, scientific and medical elements from which you can hypothesize the presence of more people.

ANSWER - Then I have to answer scientifically that there are none, because the bruises typed can be produced by the same hand, certainly even if I count about ten. So surely they are two hands. Equally the same may have suspended a subject, meaning a subject, a single aggressor. He may have suspended the activity with his hands, so this of choking, have taken the knife and wounded the girl, even before having produced the lesions at ecchymotic load on both upper limbs and limbs.

Google translate:
QUESTION - One-or more subjects subdue the homicidal dynamics, it deducts it one or more people, it deducts it from scientific elements. Self he wants to tell them what the objective elements are, scientific, legal doctors from whom you can hypothesize the presence of more people.

ANSWER - Then I have to answer to the scientific that there is none they are, because the ecchymosi digitate can be produced by the same hand, certainly even if I do account about a dozen. So surely they are two hands. The same may also have suspended a subject,meaning a subject, a single aggressor. Can have suspended the activity with the hands, then this of throttling, having taken the knife and injured the girl, even before having produced the injuries to load ecchymotic on both upper and lower limbs of the lower limbs. It also appears intuitive but without scientifically, the experience also serves the doctor law, intuition and experience should guide it beyond the technical elements. Hardly appears sustainable that this damaging framework is so important was produced by one person, but if you state what are the scientific elements, the elements scientific are not there.
From the Massei report page 119:
As for the dynamic of the homicide, with particular reference to whether the action was performed by one or more persons, Dr. Liviero ruled out the existence of scientific elements that would allow us to formulate a response to this question.
Hoots
 
Oops...I mean her opinion.

Thanks Stacy. I'm still waiting for Vixen to realize she made a few 'typos' yesterday.

Humans have two pairs of chomosomes either XY or YY. The former is female and you can extract mtDNA for the haplotype, the latter are male and you can perform Y-haplotype profiling on a male but not on a female.

Of course everybody has mitchondrial material in their biological cells but we are discussing here DNA profiling.
 
It literally took me <5 minutes to google "chromosomes" and confirm Vixen has got everything wrong.

I simply do not understand the mindset of someone who is going to sarcastically chastise someone for not understanding a subject, and then proceed to get absolutely everything wrong about the subject. :jaw-dropp

Yep, this was my first search result and I only had to read the first three sentences:
https://isogg.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA_tests
 
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Yep, this was my first search result and I only had to read the first three sentences:
https://isogg.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA_tests

You don't understand. The International Society of Genetic Genealogy Wiki site is bent and written by professionals who have clearly prostituted themselves. The $2 million PR campaign is paying them just in case someone brings up mtDNA in the Knox Sollecito case. I saw Curt Knox say that in a readily available video on the internet. Look for the one where he's standing on some steps. It wasn't long before he and Amanda got on a privately chartered 747 and flew home to Seattle.

:rolleyes:
 
Mignini's wacky plots confirmed real:

Caught in a love triangle, teens hatched a murder plot.

"The half-baked plan started out as a joke, the Herald reported."

"On Nov. 15, 2017, Cunningham tucked a large kitchen knife into his hoodie,"

"Then, he would stab the 18-year-old in the chest - not the neck, because it would get too much blood on Hadley, he thought. Another teenager, Gabriel Pfliger, would stand guard so that Vaughn couldn't escape."

This sounds like one of the proposed guilter theories where Amanda and Raffaele start out with a plan to prank Meredith with a kitchen knife to get back at her for being a stuffy prude or w/e and Rudy Guede helps out but it turns to murder.

There are some key differences though. The teenagers all spoke a mutually fluent language, and knew each other for longer than five days, (5 minutes in the case of Guede) and had a relationship with the victim that was more extensive than "lived a door down from me in the same building for a month."

What do you think Vixen? Did these hooligans nearly pull off another Amanda Knox?
 
These kids obviously weren't of the same criminal caliber as Knox and Sollecito who were much more cunning and organized. These doofuses made so many stupid mistakes that it's almost laughable unlike Knox and Sollecito who was able to find and remove all of their fingerprints and DNA from the murder room. Of course, they did fail to remove the DNA from the bra hook. Their magical DNA finding and identification kit missed that one. That's what happens when you go for the cheaper version.
 
If Vixen’s claim about mixed blood was true, why are there are numerous problems with this claim :-

• Vixen’s claim that the high quantities of Amanda’s DNA could only come from blood. Other posters who know what they are talking have corrected Vixen. If the notion of mixed blood was valid, why does Vixen have to resort to scientifically illiterate arguments to sustain the claim of mixed blood?

• Below are some of the numerous lies Vixen has said in her posts. Lying is what people resort to when the facts are against them and have no actual evidence to base their arguments on. If damming slam dunk evidence such as mixed blood really existed why does Vixen have to resort to lying in her posts?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11951980#post11951980
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12184990#post12184990
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12129207#post12129207
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12109033#post12109033
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12080218#post12080218
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12013334#post12013334
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12046056#post12046056
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12230718#post12230718
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12099647#post12099647
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12092521#post12092521

• If slam dunk evidence such as mixed blood existed, why did the prosecution have to resort to the tactics below? If slam dunk evidence existed against Amanda, why did the tactics the prosecution had to resort to clearly indicate they had a lack of evidence.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffa...daknoxcase.com/contamination-labwork-coverup/ http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/mered...old-about-amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito/
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/myths.html
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11071314#post11071314

• A major problem with the case against Amanda and Raffaele was that the evidence used against them had no credibility. An example is the knife whose characteristics would have made it impossible to have been used to stab Meredith or contain DNA :-

Not matching the wounds. The knife was too big
to have caused the wounds
It did not match a bloody outline on the bed
It had no blood
When C + V tested the knife it was negative for
the human species which meant the knife did not contain Meredith's biological
material.
The circumstances surrounding the collection of
the knife are highly suspect. The knife was picked at random from Raffaele's
kitchen with no other knives taken from the kitchen or the cottage. How were
the police were able to tell this knife was the murder weapon without
collecting the other knives? When the knife was collected, the police officers
who took the knife had no information on the size of the knife wounds and the
knife was not measured prior to collection to compare the knife with wounds on

Meredith. A justification used for taking this knife was that it was unusually
clean. C + V found starch on the knife which demolished the argument the knife was unusually clean.

If the prosecution possessed damming slam evidence such as mixed blood, why did the prosecution have to resort to using with no credibility full of holes such as the knife?

• To bleed you wounds to bleed from. I understand that Amanda was examined shortly after the interrogation and no cuts were found which could have caused bleeding. If a bloody nose was the source of the blood, why are there no witnesses who noticed swelling of Amanda’s nose? The prosecution never claimed Amanda had wounds which could have caused bleeding. How did Amanda bleed if she had no wounds to bleed from?

• As can be seen from the post below Vixen made the false claimed Stefanoni provided clear evidence of mixed blood when in reality Stefanoni did not. If there was conclusive evidence of mixed blood, why does Vixen have to resort to lying to sustain this claim?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12872557#post12872557
 
Well, having read through the last few day's/page's worth of this thread, I've just closed my mouth which I think has been hanging open for the past few minutes.
 
Well, having read through the last few day's/page's worth of this thread, I've just closed my mouth which I think has been hanging open for the past few minutes.

Yeah...it's quite something, innit?

While many posts have been posted over the last few days, it's useful to recall the current status of the case:

Knox and Sollecito were finally acquitted of the murder/rape of Kercher by the Marasca CSC panel in 2015. This acquittal decision of the Italian Supreme Court is final and irreversible, and is fully in accordance with Italian law. A contrary decision would have constituted a wrongful conviction that would have been in violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Regarding Knox's wrongful conviction for calunnia against Lumumba, the European Court of Human Rights has found that Italy committed three violations of the Convention in convicting her. The ECHR found her trial and conviction to be unfair and fatally flawed. The Committee of Ministers, which supervises the enforcement of judgments of the ECHR, under the authority of the Council of Europe, the international organization that Italy belongs to by treaty, has published the following summary of the case status:

"Case Description:

The case concerns the lack of an investigation into allegations of ill-treatment by the police in 2007, during the questioning of the applicant, a young woman of foreign nationality and language, subsequently convicted for malicious accusation in the context of criminal proceedings concerning the murder and rape of her flat mate (violation of Article 3 in its procedural limb).

The case also concerns the restriction on the applicant’s access to legal assistance during her questioning by the police, which the European Court found to have had irretrievably impaired the overall fairness of the proceedings (violation of Art. 6 §§ 1 and 3 c)) and the inadequate assistance provided to the applicant by an interpreter during the police questioning (violation of Art. 6 §§ 1 and 3 e)).

Status of Execution:

An action plan or report is awaited {from Italy, describing the steps Italy proposes to redress the violations in order to restore Knox to her status before those violations, and the general measures to prevent a recurrence of such violations}."

Source: https://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng#{%22EXECDocumentTypeCollection%22:[%22CEC%22],%22EXECState%22:[%22ITA%22],%22EXECIdentifier%22:[%22004-52517%22]}
 
If there is one or more unidentified persons who contributed their DNA to a forensic sample, one cannot be at all confident, without strong corroborating evidence, that any other "suspect" DNA on that sample was not the result of contamination.

There was absolutely no corroborating evidence to indicate that Raffaele Sollecito's DNA, nor that the DNA of any of the other unidentified males, allegedly found on the bra clasp, had any connection or relevance to the crimes against Meredith Kercher. There was evidence to the contrary: 1) the bra had been forcefully torn off Kercher's body; 2) the DNA of Rudy Guede was found on the bra fabric, Kercher's clothing, her purse, and in the rape kit; 3) one does not (typically) touch the clasp to fasten or unfasten a bra; 4) the clasp had been collected 46 days after the other evidence items, from the floor after having been moved, apparently during non-recorded police activity, and was improperly collected by investigators with dirty gloves, as recorded by the police; and 5) the clasp DNA testing did not meet international standards - there was no evidence of the proper DNA-negative controls and there was an irregularity in DNA sample numbering suggesting tampering by the scientific police.

With the exception of the obviously contaminated bra clasp, the DNA of no other male except Guede was reported by the police to be in the murder room or in or on Kercher or her clothing or purse.

DNA is of course present in epithelial cells. There are many references providing information on the topic of the forensic testing of touch DNA from epithelial cells, for example:

https://www.forensicmag.com/article/2013/04/touch-dna-crime-scene-crime-laboratory

Some relevant excerpts from the above source:

"Touch DNA
Epithelial or touch DNA evidence can be defined as evidence with no visible staining that would likely contain DNA resulting from the transfer of epithelial cells from the skin to an object. Can simply touching an object leave skin cells? It has been stated in publications that forensic scientists can obtain a DNA profile from as few as five to six cells. However, just because a surface is touched and a few skin cells are left behind does not guarantee a meaningful DNA profile can be obtained. Detecting and obtaining an interpretable DNA profile are two different concepts.

The touch DNA testing performed by most public crime laboratories utilizes the same STR typing method performed by DNA analysts for the last 10–15 years. It is not a new technology. There are alternate methods of detecting DNA from a smaller number of cells ranging from 15–30 diploid cells. This is known as Low Copy Number (LCN) testing and utilizes “enhanced” techniques for obtaining DNA profiles. The experts and courts have had disagreements on its validation, interpretation, use, and acceptance. Typically, STR typing is known to require approximately 70–150 cells to produce a DNA profile."

"Contamination is the unintentional introduction of outside DNA into a crime scene or laboratory sample. Contaminant DNA may appear as background DNA, the major or minor profile within a mixture, a single source DNA profile, or all of the above. When can this occur? Before the commission of the crime, after the crime and before the crime scene is discovered/secured, during the crime scene investigation, and within the crime laboratory or DNA laboratory. (Figure 1) In today’s world of touch DNA, a crime scene has to be approached in a way to minimize contamination since one cannot see or test for touch DNA."

"The DNA Lab and Contamination
Once evidence is received into the DNA laboratory, how is contamination minimized and what are the potential sources of epithelial cells? The Quality Assurance Standards for Forensic DNA Testing Laboratories addresses DNA contamination in Standard 9.7. In the discussion section it states, “A laboratory shall have and follow a documented policy for detecting and controlling contamination. This policy should include the procedures used by a laboratory for monitoring, decontaminating, and detecting contamination. In addition, a laboratory shall have and follow policies and/or procedures for interpreting data potentially affected by contamination.”2

In addition to lab coats and masks, how is contamination detected, controlled, and monitored? Some examples which may be employed are:

Access to the laboratory shall be controlled and limited to prevent access by unauthorized personnel.
Separation of the work areas for evidence examination, DNA extraction, and DNA amplification and typing.
Exhibits are examined at different locations and/or times.
Negative controls are being used from evidence examination through extraction and amplification.
Contamination logs monitor introduction of exogenous DNA and identify sources.
Elimination profiles of past and present DNA analysts or support staff are maintained.


The European Network of Forensic Science Institutes (ENFSI), the FBI Laboratory’s Scientific Working Group on DNA Analysis Methods (SWGDAM) composed of U.S. and Canadian members, and the Australian Biology Specialist Advisory Group (BSAG) published a joint position statement advocating that forensic DNA laboratories maintain an elimination database for screening DNA results as appropriate."

Stefanoni did not follow, or refused to provide records and data substantiating, the laboratory procedures used to detect, control, or monitor contamination. It was thus certain that she did not follow the international standards for contamination detection, control, and monitoring.

She also did not provide the replicate (duplicate) DNA profiling required for the bra clasp sample and the knife blade sample claimed to show Sollecito's DNA and Kercher's DNA, respectively.

Haha. There is zero evidence Stefanoni did anything wrong. She identified the DNA of Knox, Guede and Sollecito at the murder scene. Deal with it.
 
I agree. The level of ignorance displayed here has been astonishing!



Agreed. That's why it's a common experiment done in science classes around the world as endorsed by the Center for Disease Control:
...
(Lesson 4, Activity 1 Hand Washing Experiment - CDC)




Hmmmm....can you quote anyone saying this? I believe that claim was never made.
Since males carry their mother's X chromosome (they are not YY as you mistakenly wrote, but YX. Must have been a typo, right?) they can indeed be identified by their mtDNA. In fact, the most famous recent case was that of King Richard III who was identified by comparing his mtDNA to that of two matrilineal descendants of his sister.



Can you do me a favor and quote whoever said that "DNA can hop about"? I'm sure someone must have said it but I just can't find it after several attempts to do so. I know it must be there because you would never misrepresent what someone said.



Again, I know someone must have claimed the above but my search of the last several pages has failed to produce said claims. I suspect that someone who is bent, a Mason, or a mafioso has removed these claims in an effort to undermine your expertise in these matters. Just sad.



I agree! If I recall correctly, that DNA was not LCN (as was Sollecito's on the bra hook). May I point out another typo? It was Kercher's jacket, not sweater.



Really? Gee, I wish the Supreme Court knew that before they acquitted them! But, as the experts on TJMK have revealed, that acquittal will be judged in error any day now due to the judges being bent. Disgusting!



Gosh darn it, Vix! Again, I just can't seem to find anyone saying anything remotely like that. Darn bent editing! It's infuriating when posters delete things just to undermine you like that! I'd suggest contacting the mods. This must be stopped.



The father contributes both the Y and the X chromosome in conception.

IOW it is the male who determines the sex of the child so King Henry VIII executing his wives for not having a son was jolly unfair.

PS Sollecito's DNA was NOT LCN. Lied again!
 
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It's quite possible that some guilters may lack knowledge of the differences in mtDNA and nuclear DNA.

However, since there was no testing of mtDNA in the Kercher case, mtDNA is not relevant.

As most poster and lurkers here are well aware, the Y chromosome is found in the nucleus, and is one of the two sex chromosomes in typical human males, and is derived from the father's sperm; the other sex chromosome in human males is the X chromosome, derived from the mother's egg (ovum).

Typical human females also have two sex chromosomes, consisting of an X from the mother and an X from the father.

The forensic significance of these differences in sex chromosomes is that it is possible because of them to distinguish a relatively small number of male-source cells, such as epithelial or sperm cells deposited inside a female's vagina or present elsewhere on her body, from the many female-source cells of the victim.

The relevance to the Kercher case, and the Knox - Sollecito case, is that Stefanoni did do such differential DNA profile testing for the rape kit. Stefanoni presented the finding that Rudy Guede's Y DNA profile was found in Kercher's vagina; the presence of no other male's DNA was reported as found in the rape kit, demonstrating he was the sole participant in sexual attack on Kercher.

The results provided (and also those suppressed) by Stefanoni may be seen at:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/lab-data-suppression/

Batch One 5-6 November 2007
Samples 12a - 13b

She also discovered incriminating mixed DNA of Knox and Mez and that of Sollecito in key spots.

No amount of sophistry can wish that away.
 

Haha. So Party Rock's grandfather started up the West Seattle Herald and lo and behold Party Rock has fixed it for his weird wife to write an agony aunt column.

What next, Rosemary West's advice for teenage girls or Joanna Denahey's Knitting with Knives patterns?

Graham Young's tasty recipes (101 ways with arsenic).

Myra Hindley's Bible study group.

Ian Huntleys Young Man U supporters club.
 
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