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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

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I was merely demonstrating to those ignorant of biology (cf the C5 documentary) that DNA does NOT get passed around 'like talcum powder' *Stacyhs: nor do germs).

I mean, without watching the documentary, I'm guessing the talcum powder demonstration was just showing how a substance can transfer to an object without directly touching it through indirect transfer. Like how DNA can be indirectly transferred -- as proven to you by the scientific paper I linked as well as all experiments done on the matter.

That does not mean they were claiming DNA had the same biochemical properties as talcum powder or transferred in the exact same way.

Since we've shown you overwhelming evidence DNA can be transferred indirectly (and you clearly made up the Peter Gill claim), can we all agree now indirect DNA transfer happens regularly, and that since Stefanoni touched that bra clasp with dirty, contaminated gloves, then that is almost certainly how Rafaelle's DNA got onto that bra clasp? Especially since there was NO evidence of himself anywhere else in a thoroughly examined murder room (with tons of evidence of Rudy Guede), and we have video proof the investigators did not follow proper evidence collection protocols?

Vixen? Vixen...?
 
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Amanda Knox's DNA RFU's have high peaks and these are associated with blood which is the richest source of DNA. Saliva mixed in with Mez' blood would not have been more copious than the blood of a murder victim stabbed in the neck (wickedly). Even if it were saliva or other bodily source, it was mixed in at the same narrow streak of diluted blood and it is certain it was deposited at the same time.

They would not have 'been on top of each other. When two liquids of similar density mix (in this case blood and water diluted under a running tap) the resulting mixture does not 'sit on top of each other' (unless one was deposited a while earlier and left to dry) they mix. How do we know it was mixed? It was a consistent pale pink, almost invisible to the eye. It was one long line of drips in one contiguous line. Something dripping with blood (for example, the murder weapon) would form such a line.

This simply wrong, untrue, false. Blood is a poor source of DNA, most blood cells, red blood cells and platelets contain no DNA. Only about 1:1000 cells (the white cells) contain DNA. A good source of DNA are cells from the mouth, that is why doing a mouth wash or swab is a good way of getting a DNA sample. This is why taking a swab of phlegm if you are spat at is very likely to give a positive DNA identification (and not a LCN result either).

The chances that Knox would have performed some sort of procedure that might result in her shedding highly DNA loaded fluid from her mouth into the basin in her bathroom would seem unlikely though; this would mean she would have had to have vigorously rubbed her mouth with some sort of stick or abrasive material then spat the resulting cell loaded saliva out into the basin. Can anyone think of a situation in which this might have occurred? If we can come up with an innocent explanation of how Knox's DNA came to be on the basin in her bathroom we might be able to show some dubiety in the evidence that under rules of evidence the court (if not Vixen) would need to interpret in the defence's favour.
 
I mean, without watching the documentary, I'm guessing the talcum powder demonstration was just showing how a substance can transfer to an object without directly touching it through indirect transfer. Like how DNA can be indirectly transferred -- as proven to you by the scientific paper I linked as well as all experiments done on the matter.

That does not mean they were claiming DNA had the same biochemical properties as talcum powder or transferred in the exact same way.

Since we've shown you overwhelming evidence DNA can be transferred indirectly (and you clearly made up the Peter Gill claim), can we all agree now indirect DNA transfer happens regularly, and that since Stefanoni touched that bra clasp with dirty, contaminated gloves, then that is almost certainly how Rafaelle's DNA got onto that bra clasp? Especially since there was NO evidence of himself anywhere else in a thoroughly examined murder room (with tons of evidence of Rudy Guede), and we have video proof the investigators did not follow proper evidence collection protocols?

Vixen? Vixen...?

The defence do not need to prove how the DNA was transferred, just that there are alternative innocent explanations. I favour an explanation of secondary transfer from Knox's own hands when she put on the bra. The ratio of DNA is that seen with secondary transfer events. She may have had Sollecito's DNA on her hand from shaking his hand, or giving him a hello hug, or a high five. It may have transferred into the room during the six weeks before the bra hook was recovered. It may have been transferred during its mishandling by the CSI. It may have been a laboratory contamination event, since there was no opportunity to retest as the sample was incorrectly stored (clearly an error no competent forensic service would make), and we have no record of laboratory sampling or cleaning.

Remember how Vixen goes on about there being no record of the fridge temperature - equally where are all the 'housekeeping' records for Steffanoni's laboratory?.
 
Tutorial No. 2

Today's exercise

Apparatus
I want you all to take a small glass of fruit juice and another of tap water.

Method

1. Take a small amount of the fruit juice and mix it 1:1 with the water. Stir. Put aside.

2. Taking a small amount of the water, say a teaspoon, pour it onto a thick absorbent kitchen towel, or cloth. Leave to dry overnight.

3. 24 hours later, take a teaspoonful of the juice and pour it onto the spot where the water had been poured the previous day. Leave to dry.

4. Take a teaspoon of your stirred fruit juice/water from the day before and por onto a separate sheet of kitchen towel. Leave to dry.

5. Next day, compare the two sheets of kitchen towel.

Results

1. The paper with the fruit juice added to the water 24 hours later is much darker and shows as a separate stain to the water (see around the edges).

2. The mixed fruit juice and water remains a paler colour than the fruit juice added later, as above.

Conclusion

Now imagine scenario one represents Knox' DNA/blood left in the sink sometime before the murder. It is possible to differentiate them as two separate stains left at different times. It will reveal two separate incidences of water and blood but n'er the two were mixed.

In scenario two, the diluted blood of the victim and Knox are deposited in the sink and bidet at the same time means the streak is pale pink (as discovered by Giao (_sp?) and Stefanoni and contains a mix of Knox and Mez', which were deposited at the same time and a separation of the two fluids cannot be ascertained.

Knox' DNA/blood mixed in with Mez' DNA/blood and diluted with water was found as a long narrow streak in the sink and again in the bidet and confirmed by DNA tests showing it was:

- of Knox and the victim

- it was a single sample of blood and water mixed together at the same time

- the mixed DNA was of Knox and Kercher

- the mixed sample tested positive for human blood.

Here endeth today's lesson.

Like Steffanoni you have forgotten to run the negative control. Your test samples are also not the same one being undiluted and the other diluted juice. There should be 4 'runs' in this experiment. 1) Pre applied water, no subsequent juice/water 2) pre applied water and subsequent juice / water mix at 24hr. 3) No pre applied water Juice / water mix only at 24 hr. 4) Pre applied water and second application of water without juice at 24hr.

I would also suggest you make up the juice water mix just before applying not leave it culturing bacteria for 24 hr before applying as you then have bacterial contamination issues, both the water / juice mixes should be applied at 24 hours. In your experiment leaving the water / juice 24 hours before applying means it is not the same as fresh juice not allowed to culture with tap water for 24 hours. Each run should be done in duplicate.

This is why doing good science is difficult; your experiment as reported has obvious flaws.
 
The defence do not need to prove how the DNA was transferred, just that there are alternative innocent explanations. I favour an explanation of secondary transfer from Knox's Kercher's own hands when she put on the bra. The ratio of DNA is that seen with secondary transfer events. She may have had Sollecito's DNA on her hand from shaking his hand, or giving him a hello hug, or a high five. It may have transferred into the room during the six weeks before the bra hook was recovered. It may have been transferred during its mishandling by the CSI. It may have been a laboratory contamination event, since there was no opportunity to retest as the sample was incorrectly stored (clearly an error no competent forensic service would make), and we have no record of laboratory sampling or cleaning.

Remember how Vixen goes on about there being no record of the fridge temperature - equally where are all the 'housekeeping' records for Steffanoni's laboratory?.

Planigale, it looks like there was a typo in your post, which I have attemped to fix.

The DNA of several unknown males were reportedly on Kercher's bra hook, as well as apparently that of Sollecito.

Stefanoni implicitly states that her attempted LCN work is invalid because she did not run valid duplicate tests, as based on her October 4, 2008 testimony (see Source 1):

"Question: ….the testing of a trace of this type should be repeated several times to be considered reliable?
Answer: In theory yes.
Question: How many times did you do it?
Answer: In this case only once.
Question: Only once, and therefore in theory why ought it be considered more reliable if one does it several times?
Answer: Because reproducibility of the result is, so to speak, a good standard in any scientific experiment quite apart from forensic genetics, obviously in order to be considered valid a result must be repeatable."

It should also be recognized that a reviewer of Stefanoni's data supplied to the defense - which data did not include all the relevant information required under applicable international standards - claimed that there is an irregularity in Stefanoni's sample numbering that suggests that Stefanoni ran in initial DNA profile of the bra clasp that was suppressed, and that the bra clasp profile given to the defense was the result of a second run. If this claim is correct, it suggests possible tampering with the sample or the results.

The reviewer's analysis of the suppressed initial run states (see Source 2):

"5. Apparent Re-Run of 165b

Reconstruction of plate 410 demonstrates that Rep 165b’s profile was run once, suppressed, and re-run in a separate plate at the very end of the batch. It is only this second run of 165b that has been produced by the prosecution and touted as an incriminating profile, with the first run remaining unacknowledged and indeed secreted by the prosecution.

As can be seen in the chart for Batch 5, the amplification corresponding to Rep 165b is ID No. 681. This ID No. falls within the range of ID Nos. contained within the 32-sample plate no. 410, which spans ID Nos. 680 through 711. Yet, the prosecution has never produced an electropherogram corresponding to plate no. 410, ID 681. Instead, the prosecution has produced an ID No. 681 purportedly generated in plate no. 414. This electropherogram for plate no. 414, ID 681, is remarkable, because it is the only known electropherogram produced for this plate (a single-sample plate being a phenomena that is seen in only one other example in this case). In addition, plate no. 414 itself is remarkable, because it sequentially follows plate no. 413, which contains Y profiles and thus should mark the end of batch no. 5. In effect, the electropherogram that has been produced for Rep. 165b is from the wrong plate and appears exceptionally to have been generated after the end of the relevant batch analyses."


For a summary of the many issues with the bra clasp DNA profiling including the lack of relevant controls, including the above translated testimony (Source 1), and the apparent suppression of a first run on the bra clasp (Source 2) see:

1) http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-bra-clasp/

2) http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/bra-clasp-contamination/
 
Planigale, it looks like there was a typo in your post, which I have attemped to fix.

The DNA of several unknown males were reportedly on Kercher's bra hook, as well as apparently that of Sollecito.

Stefanoni implicitly states that her attempted LCN work is invalid because she did not run valid duplicate tests, as based on her October 4, 2008 testimony (see Source 1):

"Question: ….the testing of a trace of this type should be repeated several times to be considered reliable?
Answer: In theory yes.
Question: How many times did you do it?
Answer: In this case only once.
Question: Only once, and therefore in theory why ought it be considered more reliable if one does it several times?
Answer: Because reproducibility of the result is, so to speak, a good standard in any scientific experiment quite apart from forensic genetics, obviously in order to be considered valid a result must be repeatable."

It should also be recognized that a reviewer of Stefanoni's data supplied to the defense - which data did not include all the relevant information required under applicable international standards - claimed that there is an irregularity in Stefanoni's sample numbering that suggests that Stefanoni ran in initial DNA profile of the bra clasp that was suppressed, and that the bra clasp profile given to the defense was the result of a second run. If this claim is correct, it suggests possible tampering with the sample or the results.

The reviewer's analysis of the suppressed initial run states (see Source 2):

"5. Apparent Re-Run of 165b

Reconstruction of plate 410 demonstrates that Rep 165b’s profile was run once, suppressed, and re-run in a separate plate at the very end of the batch. It is only this second run of 165b that has been produced by the prosecution and touted as an incriminating profile, with the first run remaining unacknowledged and indeed secreted by the prosecution.

As can be seen in the chart for Batch 5, the amplification corresponding to Rep 165b is ID No. 681. This ID No. falls within the range of ID Nos. contained within the 32-sample plate no. 410, which spans ID Nos. 680 through 711. Yet, the prosecution has never produced an electropherogram corresponding to plate no. 410, ID 681. Instead, the prosecution has produced an ID No. 681 purportedly generated in plate no. 414. This electropherogram for plate no. 414, ID 681, is remarkable, because it is the only known electropherogram produced for this plate (a single-sample plate being a phenomena that is seen in only one other example in this case). In addition, plate no. 414 itself is remarkable, because it sequentially follows plate no. 413, which contains Y profiles and thus should mark the end of batch no. 5. In effect, the electropherogram that has been produced for Rep. 165b is from the wrong plate and appears exceptionally to have been generated after the end of the relevant batch analyses."


For a summary of the many issues with the bra clasp DNA profiling including the lack of relevant controls, including the above translated testimony (Source 1), and the apparent suppression of a first run on the bra clasp (Source 2) see:

1) http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-bra-clasp/

2) http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/bra-clasp-contamination/

Thanks your correction is correct.
 
Amanda Knox's DNA RFU's have high peaks and these are associated with blood which is the richest source of DNA. Saliva mixed in with Mez' blood would not have been more copious than the blood of a murder victim stabbed in the neck (wickedly). Even if it were saliva or other bodily source, it was mixed in at the same narrow streak of diluted blood and it is certain it was deposited at the same time.

They would not have 'been on top of each other. When two liquids of similar density mix (in this case blood and water diluted under a running tap) the resulting mixture does not 'sit on top of each other' (unless one was deposited a while earlier and left to dry) they mix. How do we know it was mixed? It was a consistent pale pink, almost invisible to the eye. It was one long line of drips in one contiguous line. Something dripping with blood (for example, the murder weapon) would form such a line.

As the posts below show the fact PGP believe in mixed blood demonstrates PGP are so staggeringly stupid and scientifically illiterate, they can't grasp the simplest concepts.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12369927#post12369927
 
This simply wrong, untrue, false. Blood is a poor source of DNA, most blood cells, red blood cells and platelets contain no DNA. Only about 1:1000 cells (the white cells) contain DNA. A good source of DNA are cells from the mouth, that is why doing a mouth wash or swab is a good way of getting a DNA sample. This is why taking a swab of phlegm if you are spat at is very likely to give a positive DNA identification (and not a LCN result either).

The chances that Knox would have performed some sort of procedure that might result in her shedding highly DNA loaded fluid from her mouth into the basin in her bathroom would seem unlikely though; this would mean she would have had to have vigorously rubbed her mouth with some sort of stick or abrasive material then spat the resulting cell loaded saliva out into the basin. Can anyone think of a situation in which this might have occurred? If we can come up with an innocent explanation of how Knox's DNA came to be on the basin in her bathroom we might be able to show some dubiety in the evidence that under rules of evidence the court (if not Vixen) would need to interpret in the defence's favour.

If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was such a slam dunk, why does Vixen constantly have to resort to scientifically innacurate arguments to argue her case.
 
Planigale, it looks like there was a typo in your post, which I have attemped to fix.

The DNA of several unknown males were reportedly on Kercher's bra hook, as well as apparently that of Sollecito.

Stefanoni implicitly states that her attempted LCN work is invalid because she did not run valid duplicate tests, as based on her October 4, 2008 testimony (see Source 1):

"Question: ….the testing of a trace of this type should be repeated several times to be considered reliable?
Answer: In theory yes.
Question: How many times did you do it?
Answer: In this case only once.
Question: Only once, and therefore in theory why ought it be considered more reliable if one does it several times?
Answer: Because reproducibility of the result is, so to speak, a good standard in any scientific experiment quite apart from forensic genetics, obviously in order to be considered valid a result must be repeatable."

It should also be recognized that a reviewer of Stefanoni's data supplied to the defense - which data did not include all the relevant information required under applicable international standards - claimed that there is an irregularity in Stefanoni's sample numbering that suggests that Stefanoni ran in initial DNA profile of the bra clasp that was suppressed, and that the bra clasp profile given to the defense was the result of a second run. If this claim is correct, it suggests possible tampering with the sample or the results.

The reviewer's analysis of the suppressed initial run states (see Source 2):

"5. Apparent Re-Run of 165b

Reconstruction of plate 410 demonstrates that Rep 165b’s profile was run once, suppressed, and re-run in a separate plate at the very end of the batch. It is only this second run of 165b that has been produced by the prosecution and touted as an incriminating profile, with the first run remaining unacknowledged and indeed secreted by the prosecution.

As can be seen in the chart for Batch 5, the amplification corresponding to Rep 165b is ID No. 681. This ID No. falls within the range of ID Nos. contained within the 32-sample plate no. 410, which spans ID Nos. 680 through 711. Yet, the prosecution has never produced an electropherogram corresponding to plate no. 410, ID 681. Instead, the prosecution has produced an ID No. 681 purportedly generated in plate no. 414. This electropherogram for plate no. 414, ID 681, is remarkable, because it is the only known electropherogram produced for this plate (a single-sample plate being a phenomena that is seen in only one other example in this case). In addition, plate no. 414 itself is remarkable, because it sequentially follows plate no. 413, which contains Y profiles and thus should mark the end of batch no. 5. In effect, the electropherogram that has been produced for Rep. 165b is from the wrong plate and appears exceptionally to have been generated after the end of the relevant batch analyses."


For a summary of the many issues with the bra clasp DNA profiling including the lack of relevant controls, including the above translated testimony (Source 1), and the apparent suppression of a first run on the bra clasp (Source 2) see:

1) http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-bra-clasp/

2) http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/bra-clasp-contamination/

I have raised the issue before if the bra clasp was such a solid piece of evidence with a full DNA profile as Vixen constantly claims, why did Stefanoni need to resort to the above tactics. In addition, if the clasp was such a slam dunk piece of evidence, why did Stefanoni allow the clasp to rust making it useless for testing. If the clasp was solid evidence, Stefanoni should have been happy to have the clasp tested. There is one critical fact that Vixen never mentions is the suspicious circumstances the clasp was collected. The prosecution initially claimed shoe prints in Meredith's room matched Raffaele's shoes which Raffaele's family proved was not true. If new evidence had not turned up, the police would have had to release Raffaele. It is highly suspect the clasp conveniently turns up at the same time the shoe print evidence was disproved.
 
Stacyhs, the quote you have supplied from the Marasca CSC panel MR is actually part of their summary of Sollecito's appeal arguments on page 14 of the translation.

The actual Marasca CSC panel MR statement on the problems with the DNA collection and testing is on page 26 and goes beyond the obvious contamination problems:

"....In homicides such as this (such pressure {from the media}) affects not only the timing but also the competence and the correctness of the investigative activities. Not only this, but when – as in this case – the outcome of such research depends greatly on scientific investigations, the aseptic collection of all the samples useful for the investigation – in conditions that guarantee prior sterility that avoids possible contamination – constitutes, notably, the first prudent, shrewd and essential prelude – in its turn – of a correct analysis and “reading” of the recovered samples. So when the central point of technical activity contains specialist genetic investigations, the contribution of investigative activity is ever more relevant; credible parameters of correctness must respect international standards of protocols, following fundamental rules of approach prescribed by the scientific community, on the basis of statistical and validated observations.
The rigorous respect of such methodical norms offers a conventional coefficient of acceptable credibility of such results, primarily linked to their reproducibility - namely the possibility of obtaining these results, and only these, reproduced with a constantly identical method and under identical conditions, according to fundamental empirical rules. On a more general level following the scientific method starting with Galileo Galilei on the application of the “scientific method”. This is typically leading to “objective” reality, reliable, verifiable and agreeable – well-known to be consistent, on one hand, in the collection of empirical data agreeable with the hypothesis and the theory to be validated; on the other hand in the mathematical and rigorous analysis, associating in this way – as first affirmed by the above-mentioned Galilei - "sensible experiences" to "necessary demonstrations", that constitute experimental mathematics.

4.2. As will be seen, all of this {necessary attention to proper scientific procedures required to obtain credible forensic results in accordance with international standards as stated above} is essentially missing from the present trial."

The alleged DNA evidence against Knox and Sollecito consisted of the knife the police took from Sollecito's kitchen drawer and the bra clasps attached to a scrap of bra fabric the police found on the floor 46 days after the initial search. The clasps, as shown in the police video, were touched by dirty gloves which may have been a source of DNA contamination.

While the Marasca CSC panel motivation report sections I quote above summarize the valid criticisms of that final judgment, a fuller explanation of the CSC's objections to the use of that evidence for a conviction is found in sections 7, 7.1, and 7.2 of the MR.

Here are some relevant excerpts from those sections, showing that the alleged DNA evidence claimed against Knox and Sollecito were considered to be without validity, under Italian law, as evidence to establish a fact for any verdict of conviction. The MR quotes from previous judicial motivations of the CSC that show that under Italian jurisprudence, DNA profile testing can only be considered valid circumstantial evidence if the alleged DNA sample was collected, stored, and analyzed in accordance with international scientific protocols, with the assurance of repeatability.
"7. The second criticism that must be raised against the ruling under appeal introduces to* the central theme of the judgment, or rather the legal value attributable to the scientific evidence, with particular reference to the genetic investigations, acquired in violation of the rules established by international protocols. ....

Hence, a piece of scientific evidence may be held to be reliable only when it has been examined by the judge, at least with regard to the subjective reliability of the person affirming it, the scientific nature of the method employed, within a more or less acceptable margin of error, and the objective significance and reliability of the result obtained. In short, according to a critical method not dissimilar, conceptually, to that required for the assessment of ordinary evidence, with the aim of raising the level of reliability of “legal truth” as far as possible, or – if one prefers – reducing the unavoidable gap between legal truth and substantive truth to reasonable margins.

The probative reasoning which permits the passage from the evidentiary element to the evidentiary result belongs within the exclusive competence of the judge of merit, who, obviously, must provide an adequate motivation and of whom is required, in the case of circumstantial evidence, a twofold justificatory examination: a first examination pertaining to so-called “external justification”, by means of which the judge themselves must determine the validity of the rule of experience or of the scientific or logical law or of any other rule used; and a second examination pertaining to the so-called “internal justification”, by means of which the validity of the result obtained via the application of the “bridging rule” must be concretely demonstrated (Section 1, no. 31456 of 21/05/2006. Franzioni, Rv. 240764).

7.1. With such considerations, in general and in the abstract, it is now time to consider, in the specifics, a very particular profile that is a lot more problematic.
....
{The issue is}...about ascertaining what value in the trial the genetic investigations can have when performed in a context when the analysis and findings are not at all respectful of the regulations approved by international protocols and those which, ordinarily, must take inspiration from the scientific method.
In making implicit reference to judicial interpretation of legitimacy, the judge a quo [of the trial from which this appeal is being heard] didn’t hesitate to attribute evidentiary value to the aforementioned results (f. 217).

The assumption cannot be shared.....
The justifiable reasoning lies, in the opinion of this Court, in the same notion of circumstantial evidence offered by the legal code, that, in Article 192 section 2, orders that “The existence of a fact cannot be deduced from pieces of circumstantial evidence unless they are serious, precise and consistent”, with the outcome that an element of evidence of the case, to qualify as being circumstantial evidence, must have the characteristics of seriousness, preciseness and consistency.... These characteristics are summarised in the so-called "certainty" of the circumstantial evidence, even if such a requirement is not explicitly stated in Article 192 of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure, 2nd section. In reality, it is an additional characteristic considered as unfailing in established jurisprudence and intrinsically linked to the same burden of proof of circumstantial evidence, through which, through a process of formal logic, the demonstration of the concept of proof is arrived at – an unknown fact – starting from a known fact and, therefore, established as true. It is well understood, in fact, that a similar process would be, in nuce [in short], fallacious and unreliable, when reasoning from facts that are not precise and serious and then certain.
....

Taking into account such considerations one really cannot see how the results of the genetic analysis – that were performed in violation of the recommendations for the protocols regarding the collection and storage – can be considered endowed of the characteristics of seriousness and preciseness.....

...no importance can be given to the acquired data, not even as circumstantial evidence (cf. Section 2, n. 2476 of 27/11/2014, dep. 2015, Santangelo, Rv. 261866, on the necessity of correct storage of the material containing genetic profiles, for the purposes of “repeatability” of technical findings capable of extrapolating the genetic profile; repeatability that is, moreover, dependent on the quantity of the trace and the quality of the DNA present on the biological exhibits collected; id. N. 2476/14 cit. Rv. 261867).

In the case in question, it is absolutely certain that those methods were not complied with (cf., among others, ff. 206-207 and the cited requested findings of the expert report Conte-Vecchiotti, ordered by the Perugian Court of Appeal).

In this regard it suffices to consider the methods of collection and storage of the two objects of major investigative interest in the current judgment: the kitchen knife (exhibit n. 36) and the bra clasp fastener of the victim (exhibit n. 165/b), for which the sentence did not hesitate to qualify the work of the investigators in terms of lack of professionalism (f. 207).
....

7.2 In order to dispel any possible ambiguity on the matter, it will be of value then, to consider that with the impossibility of attributing appreciable and demonstrable importance during the proceedings, to the results of the genetic investigations that were not repeated and became incapable of repetition, due to the insignificant quantity or the complexity of the sample, it is not a remedy to evoke the effectiveness and usability of the technical findings if they are “unrepeatable”, when, as in the case in question, the defence guarantees were observed according to Article 360 Italian Code of Criminal Procedure. .... In the case in question, despite the compliance of the procedures according to Article 360 of the legal code, the evidence admitted – not repeated and not capable of repetition in any way – cannot take on either probative or circumstantial relevance, precisely because, according to the aforementioned laws of science, they necessitated validation or falsification. In other words, in one case the empirical data, “photographed” in a timely manner, assumes demonstrable significance; while on the other it is devoid of such capability, precisely because its indicative value is inextricably linked to its repetition or repeatability.

* Leaving out "to" from the translation makes the English more idiomatic.
 
{The issue is}...about ascertaining what value in the trial the genetic investigations can have when performed in a context when the analysis and findings are not at all respectful of the regulations approved by international protocols and those which, ordinarily, must take inspiration from the scientific method.
In making implicit reference to judicial interpretation of legitimacy, the judge a quo [of the trial from which this appeal is being heard] didn’t hesitate to attribute evidentiary value to the aforementioned results (f. 217).

The assumption cannot be shared.

It is citations like this that go to the heart of the Supreme Court's remit. They are not arbiters of evidence, but arbiters of the law related to how evidence is evaluated.

When even the best prosecution witness, seemingly called to substantiate Stefanoni's work, instead admits that Stefanoni's work had not been done according to international protocols.....

..... then the Supreme Court has the responsibility to "throw out" the evidence if a lower court had used it to convict.

Apparently, even in Italy, it is against the law to convict people based on illegitimate evidence.

And add to this the Supreme Court's final observation.... even if that illegitimate evidence had been true, all it did was put the accused in another part of the cottage at a later time.

Yet guilter-nutters still bang on about how this final court had found it factual that they'd been present at the murder. Or that that court had found it as factual that they'd been covering for the real murderer, Rudy Guede.
 
I was merely demonstrating to those ignorant of biology (cf the C5 documentary) that DNA does NOT get passed around 'like talcum powder' *Stacyhs: nor do germs).

I think it's quite precious you thinking that you're qualified teaching the thread biology. Chris Halkides, are you listening? Would you like to teach me data communications and information technology? Let's see that picture of a cellular base station antenna again.

Please we all need to listen to the ignorant and cognitively dissonant. Now how exactly did a regularly scheduled daily British Airways 747 flight bcome a private jet?
 
You might want to start by figuring out the constituent parts of blood, figuring out which constituent parts make up (by a gigantic ratio) the largest proportion of blood, then figuring out whether or not they contain DNA......


Just delurking, as a specialist in blood analysis, to confirm that this is correct. Plasma has essentially no DNA and that's more than half of the total blood volume. Erythrocytes have barely a trace of DNA, and that's almost all the rest. The only DNA is in the buffy coat, the white cells, which is a line across a microhaematocrit tube between the plasma and the packed red cells, which is maybe 0.5 mm thick. Out of maybe a 5 cm blood column. Pretty much any other tissue in the body (with the exception of ocular fluid) has vastly more than this.
 
Just delurking, as a specialist in blood analysis, to confirm that this is correct. Plasma has essentially no DNA and that's more than half of the total blood volume. Erythrocytes have barely a trace of DNA, and that's almost all the rest. The only DNA is in the buffy coat, the white cells, which is a line across a microhaematocrit tube between the plasma and the packed red cells, which is maybe 0.5 mm thick. Out of maybe a 5 cm blood column. Pretty much any other tissue in the body (with the exception of ocular fluid) has vastly more than this.

Only white blood cells are nucleated. However, it doesn't change the fact that high RFU's in a DNA reading is associated with blood.

Saliva might be proportionally more. Think about it: copious bleeding from a neck wound will still consistently produce higher volume of fluid than a gob of saliva.

Don't try to deny high RFU's in a DNA analysis are not closely associated with blood.

High RFU's are correlated with blood.
 
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I refer you to a lousy Channel 5 documentary (which quickly sank in obscurity) which tried to demonstrate this very thing, also Conti in the Netflix film tries to claim DNA is spread around 'like dust' every time we shake our hands.

Absolute RUBBISH! Most contagious illnesses such as flu, colds and pneumonia are spread by AIRBORNE germs. In addition, most of these are caused by VIRUSES not germs. Bacteria on a human body is 100% natural and even necessary for good health.
Ummm...viruses ARE germs:
The four main types of germs are bacteria, viruses, fungi, and protozoa.
http://sciencenetlinks.com/student-teacher-sheets/whats-germ/ Conti never said that in the Netflix film. This is what he said:
Let us be clear how easy it is to leave traces of DNA. If you move your hand on your arm, that small amount of fine dust those are all DNA traces which we spread within the area where we are in that particular moment. Therefore, a crime scene must be kept completely sterile. That is not what happened in this case.
He most certainly never said " DNA is spread around 'like dust' every time we shake our hands" as you just claimed. Conti then goes on to describe the ways in which the police and Stefanoni’s crew failed to follow many basic anti-contamination protocols. That is all he has to say about the DNA. But he does quote Cicero, which I think bears repeating: Any man is liable to err, only a fool persists in error
Absolute crap that if you touch someone they transfer their germs to you. NONSENSE. To catch anything from them, you would need a huge amount of transfer, more than your immune system can cope with, as normally your white blood cells will simply see them off, as per usual. Secondly you would need to put the 'germy' part to your mouth or some other point of entry. This idea you can catch something just by touching someone reminds us of the sheer ignorance surrounding illnesses such as AIDS (a retrovirus) or cancer (cell growth gone wrong).
No one said that "you can catch something just by touching someone". Once again, either your reading comprehension is poor or you are deliberately misrepresenting what was said in an effort to boost your (false) claims. What we said was that germs can transfer through touch such as shaking hands.
Germs can spread from one person to another through direct contact when people shake hands, hug, or kiss. Germs can also spread through indirect contact if people touch something with germs already on it, like a doorknob, and then touch their eyes, nose, or mouth.
https://www.cff.org/Life-With-CF/Da...-Healthy/What-Are-Germs/How-Are-Germs-Spread/
I was merely demonstrating to those ignorant of biology (cf the C5 documentary) that DNA does NOT get passed around 'like
talcum powder' *Stacyhs: nor do germs).

I really don't know why you find it so difficult to understand that the talcum powder is used to visibly demonstrate how DNA and germs can be passed from one person to another through touch. Of course, we have your claim that it can't but, then again, scientists and doctors say they can be transferred through touch. Who ya gonna believe? An accountant or actual forensic scientists and doctors? What a quandary.
 
Only white blood cells are nucleated. However, it doesn't change the fact that high RFU's in a DNA reading is associated with blood.

Saliva might be proportionally more. Think about it: copious bleeding from a neck wound will still consistently produce higher volume of fluid than a gob of saliva.

Don't try to deny high RFU's in a DNA analysis are not closely associated with blood.

High RFU's are correlated with blood.


You have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Ha! Q.E.D ::

Instead of having the integrity to admit it, you pretend you no understand. Heap big confusion.

LOL!!! "Q.E.D." literally means, "the proof is now complete." Like your misuse of <fx...> as well as not having a clue as to what "kimo sabe" refers, you've now seemingly granted Rolfe the last word on blood-DNA analysis.

(Sorry TomG.) Hoots!
 
Ha! Q.E.D ::

Instead of having the integrity to admit it, you pretend you no understand. Heap big confusion.



Ahhh no, Vixen. I believe Rolfe was actually suggesting that your entire understanding/interpretation of blood chemistry, relative DNA density of various body tissues & fluids, and forensic DNA analysis in general, is fundamentally erroneous.

Starting with your incorrect claim that "high RFU's in a DNA reading is (sic) associated with blood".

Continuing with almost literally everything else you've written about this subject matter in the recent and more distant past.
 
Ha! Q.E.D ::

Instead of having the integrity to admit it, you pretend you no understand. Heap big confusion.

Honestly, I give you credit to sticking to your guns, even if they are cap guns that are misfiring.

Even if we were talking about undiluted blood you would be wrong, but unfortunately for you, this is about diluted blood.

DNA GENOTEK said:
It might surprise you to know that much confusion surrounds the real source of genomic DNA in saliva. Surprisingly, most people assume the source of DNA in saliva is strictly buccal epithelial cells. However, studies show that up to 74%[1] of the DNA in saliva comes from white blood cells which are an excellent source of large amounts of high quality genomic DNA. Yielding virtually the same amount of DNA per volume and the same DNA quality as blood, saliva can be considered equivalent to blood for genetic applications.

https://blog.dnagenotek.com/8-facts-most-people-dont-know-about-dna-from-saliva
 
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