Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[JayUtah]

I tend to discredit the idea that actual genealogical research is made by the mediums for an ordinary, low-profiled session. As Scorpion puts it, the few shillings that he gave, would not be worth it.

If money is the only desired end product, that makes sense. But as I mentioned earlier, because of this one reading Scorpion is now championing her authenticity up to 40 years later. Fleecing the flock is one thing, but retaining a flock to fleece is another. All these tricks operate according to some variant of "I can't believe anyone would go to the trouble to..." Turning the cost-benefit analysis on its head is mentalism's bread and butter.

But you're right that we don't throw practicality entirely out the window. Yes, I think it's far more likely that the medium obtained her information via a friendly, low-cost tip. But Scorpion readily assures us that it didn't happen that way. So if we grant him that, is it still possible to do a reading? That is, what can the medium have found out using only publicly available information? If we find that ordinary vital records give enough information, then we consider the worst-case scenario still to be effective. And this is important when the proffered explanation (supernatural intervention) is posited as the default. "It must be X because no other alternative is possible." When that's the syllogism, then "possible" can't be interchanged with "practical" or "profitable" with the same logical rigor.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

If money is the only desired end product, that makes sense. But as I mentioned earlier, because of this one reading Scorpion is now championing her authenticity up to 40 years later. Fleecing the flock is one thing, but retaining a flock to fleece is another. All these tricks operate according to some variant of "I can't believe anyone would go to the trouble to..." Turning the cost-benefit analysis on its head is mentalism's bread and butter.

But you're right that we don't throw practicality entirely out the window. Yes, I think it's far more likely that the medium obtained her information via a friendly, low-cost tip. But Scorpion readily assures us that it didn't happen that way. So if we grant him that, is it still possible to do a reading? That is, what can the medium have found out using only publicly available information? If we find that ordinary vital records give enough information, then we consider the worst-case scenario still to be effective. And this is important when the proffered explanation (supernatural intervention) is posited as the default. "It must be X because no other alternative is possible." When that's the syllogism, then "possible" can't be interchanged with "practical" or "profitable" with the same logical rigor.

Quite a lot if we assume a mid to high level of skill of the medium. It's been well documented that victims of psychics and mediums often unknowingly give away small details during readings.

The following thread contains a transcript of Medium John Edward.

I urge Scorpion to look at it.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130899

 

[Scorpion]

(1) A medium told me I had a dead brother I did not even know about and told me his name.
(2) A medium told me I had recently done a blue and white painting and I was not satisfied with it. ( I am sure I had not told anyone this)
(3) A medium correctly told me I spent all my money on LP records.
(4) A medium told me the exact circumstances of my grandfathers death.

I did not come lightly to a belief in mediums. It took two years of such messages to convince me that the most likely explanation for what was happening was the mediums were doing what they said they were doing, and getting messages from the spirit world.

 

[JayUtah]

I did not come lightly to a belief in mediums.

No, you weren't dragged kicking and screaming against your will to a belief in mediums by an overwhelming preponderance of evidence. You attended a spiritualist church because you already had those beliefs, and you have interpreted a variety of experience through that preferential lens. Even now you're fighting tooth and nail to maintain a belief in mediums, even if it means you have to rearrange the facts to do so. Nothing you have said on this forum convinces me your belief is the result of a rational, deliberative process.

 

[Dr. Keith]

If money is the only desired end product, that makes sense. But as I mentioned earlier, because of this one reading Scorpion is now championing her authenticity up to 40 years later. Fleecing the flock is one thing, but retaining a flock to fleece is another. All these tricks operate according to some variant of "I can't believe anyone would go to the trouble to..." Turning the cost-benefit analysis on its head is mentalism's bread and butter.

But you're right that we don't throw practicality entirely out the window. Yes, I think it's far more likely that the medium obtained her information via a friendly, low-cost tip. But Scorpion readily assures us that it didn't happen that way. So if we grant him that, is it still possible to do a reading? That is, what can the medium have found out using only publicly available information? If we find that ordinary vital records give enough information, then we consider the worst-case scenario still to be effective. And this is important when the proffered explanation (supernatural intervention) is posited as the default. "It must be X because no other alternative is possible." When that's the syllogism, then "possible" can't be interchanged with "practical" or "profitable" with the same logical rigor.

This reminds me of an episode of The Mentalist where he promises to predict the trifecta at a horse race. He then runs to the counter and picks every possible trifecta at a great cost and quickly combs through them to find the winning bet just as the target of the con walks up. He hands him the winning trifecta ticket and walks off. I don't remember the plot or why he wanted to convince this target of his powers, just that he picked this simple con to do so.

It is not worth the money to select every possible trifecta if the only thing you get out of it is the winnings. But, if you can use it as a tool to convince a susceptible person that you have special powers, then it may be a very cheap investment.

ETA: Scorpion may not have even been the primary target. Others observing the feat and seeing Scorpion's genuine surprise and disbelief may have been the real targets. Furthering the conviction of other generous believers by giving a fantastic reading to some random kid is probably worth more than every dime Scorpion ever donated to the church. So, maybe he wasn't even the victim here, just the prop.

 

[Pope130]

ETA: Scorpion may not have even been the primary target. Others observing the feat and seeing Scorpion's genuine surprise and disbelief may have been the real targets. Furthering the conviction of other generous believers by giving a fantastic reading to some random kid is probably worth more than every dime Scorpion ever donated to the church. So, maybe he wasn't even the victim here, just the prop.

I think this is valid. Much like the casinos that run adds featuring the big winners. It's the illusion that you will surely win a fortune that keeps the marks coming in.

 

[abaddon]

Besides I was something of an insider in the church because I sat in a psychic developing circle organised by a friend of mine who was another member of the church about my age. He led the circle every week, and I watched him develop into a medium in front of my eyes. I believe he is still a practicing medium, and his name is Trevor

All of a sudden, have transformed from some anonymous joe in the pews, to someone who is an insider participating in it's committees and projects.

You see no problem with this?

 

[Thor 2]

Besides I was something of an insider in the church because I sat in a psychic developing circle organised by a friend of mine who was another member of the church about my age. He led the circle every week, and I watched him develop into a medium in front of my eyes. I believe he is still a practicing medium, and his name is Trevor.

All of a sudden, have transformed from some anonymous joe in the pews, to someone who is an insider participating in it's committees and projects.

You see no problem with this?

One would think Scorpion would be able to give us the good oil, on some of the tricky questions he has been asked, instead of ducking for cover, given he is in a position of authority regarding psychic phenomena.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

(1) A medium told me I had a dead brother I did not even know about and told me his name.
(2) A medium told me I had recently done a blue and white painting and I was not satisfied with it. ( I am sure I had not told anyone this)
(3) A medium correctly told me I spent all my money on LP records.
(4) A medium told me the exact circumstances of my grandfathers death.

I did not come lightly to a belief in mediums. It took two years of such messages to convince me that the most likely explanation for what was happening was the mediums were doing what they said they were doing, and getting messages from the spirit world.

See my post.

 

[bluesjnr]

One would think Scorpion would be able to give us the good oil, on some of the tricky questions he has been asked, instead of ducking for cover, given he is in a position of authority regarding psychic phenomena.

We will have to wait until the schadenfreude drops below 90%.

 

[Scorpion]

All of a sudden, have transformed from some anonymous joe in the pews, to someone who is an insider participating in it's committees and projects.

You see no problem with this?

I did not know any of the visiting mediums who gave me messages. To them I was just a face in the crowd.

 

[Pixel42]

I did not know any of the visiting mediums who gave me messages. To them I was just a face in the crowd.

But not to the rest of the congregation, any one of whom could have given them information, obtained in many possible ways. How many more times: people talk to each other.

This is why, in a properly designed test of mediumship, considerable care is taken to ensure the medium has no additional sources of information. Otherwise all you have is yet another worthless anecdote.

 

[Scorpion]

But not to the rest of the congregation, any one of whom could have given them information, obtained in many possible ways. How many more times: people talk to each other.

This is why, in a properly designed test of mediumship, considerable care is taken to ensure the medium has no additional sources of information. Otherwise all you have is yet another worthless anecdote.

I am sure I did not tell anyone I had done a blue and white painting I was not satisfied with.
I did not tell anyone I spent all my college allowance on LP records.
I did not tell anyone the circumstances of my grandfathers death.
I certainly did not tell them about my baby brother dying, because I did not even know.
Mediums told me these things in messages they gave me from the rostrum during church services.
I believe those messages came from the spirit world.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

I was just one pasty faced youth in a church congregation. I only put a couple of shillings in the collection plate each week.

Are youths often allowed in inner circle meetings and the like?

 

[Scorpion]

Are youths often allowed in inner circle meetings and the like?

No, I was not privy to meetings. I just joined a psychic developing circle held by some of the church members. I did not develop any psychic powers myself, but others in the circle did.

 

[Max_mang]

No, I was not privy to meetings. I just joined a psychic developing circle held by some of the church members. I did not develop any psychic powers myself, but others in the circle did.

Please start a new thread about how you determined other church members had developed psychic powers, I'd be very interested to know.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

I am sure I did not tell anyone I had done a blue and white painting I was not satisfied with.
I did not tell anyone I spent all my college allowance on LP records.
I did not tell anyone the circumstances of my grandfathers death.
I certainly did not tell them about my baby brother dying, because I did not even know.
Mediums told me these things in messages they gave me from the rostrum during church services.
I believe those messages came from the spirit world.

No. They conned you. They gave you a standard cold reading.

You've been provided with ample resources to learn about how it's done.

You continue to obfuscate the events by altering and adding more and more details.

 

[Scorpion]

Please start a new thread about how you determined other church members had developed psychic powers, I'd be very interested to know.

The young man who conducted the circle was named Trevor Williams. During the circle he appeared to be taken in trance by a Chinese spirit guide and I was able to speak to the guide. He told me I was not meant to have
an easy life because of my karma.

I do not think Trevor was trying to fool me as he was a friend, and as far as I know he is still a practicing medium who rotates the churches holding services.
I saw him in a church a few years ago holding a Sunday service.

On one occasion the table lamp next to me flickered strangely. It didn't flicker in an ordinary way. It looked as if something was moving around inside the bulb. I have always thought that might have been a physical manifestation of some spirit interfering with the lamp.

 

[Pixel42]

I am sure I did not tell anyone I had done a blue and white painting I was not satisfied with.
I did not tell anyone I spent all my college allowance on LP records.
I did not tell anyone the circumstances of my grandfathers death.
I certainly did not tell them about my baby brother dying, because I did not even know.

People talk to each other.

Mediums have many sources of information. Mediums throw out lots of statements, some general and some specific, because they know that their eager listeners will interpret the general stuff in a way which applies to them whenever they can find a way to do so, seize on the specific ones which happen to resonate with them, and ignore the rest.

This has all been explained to you umpteen times. There is nothing in your anecdotes which requires a supernatural explanation. The usual combination of hot/cold reading, intelligent guesswork, subjective validation, coincidence, and your own natural tendency to remember the hits and forget the misses, are all that's required to explain them.

 

[Scorpion]

No. They conned you. They gave you a standard cold reading.

You've been provided with ample resources to learn about how it's done.

You continue to obfuscate the events by altering and adding more and more details.

How could any of those messages be cold readings. They told me facts I had not talked about. I kept a straight face and only answered yes or no if they asked me questions.