The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

[Vixen]

Not quite. For DNA to be used to IDENTIFY a particular person there is a minimum number of alleles required. That does not change the fact that there was the DNA of other men on that bra clasp indicating what has always been claimed: it was contaminated. Either that or those other men directly touched that bra clasp.

NO ONE is claiming it was not Raffaele's DNA so stop harping on that as if you're making some relevant point. You're not. It's HOW it got there that was in dispute. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?

Here's a news flash for ya: the Supreme Court and most forensic scientists disagree with you about it being "a clear piece of hard evidence".

I am glad you agree it is Raff's DNA.

Let's pause for a minute to let it sink in.

The deeply wicked act of taunting Mez with a knife (dozens of flick wounds on her body, especially on her hands) plunging in a long kitchen knife upwards into her neck in a sawing action and then undressing the body by grabbing her bra and either ripping it off by force or cutting it with a knife, pulling her by the hair, dragging her body eighteen inches across the floor on a sheet/blanket and the person whose full DNA is found to be Raffaele Sollecito.

But wait! This isn't the only evidence against him: his bare footprint in the victim's blood was identified on the bath mat.

His bare footprints - one facing Mez' door was highlighted by luminol, a standard, much used and popular device to discover concealed blood.

What were his bare footprints doing around the flat anyway, when Knox durng the week she knew him, always went around his place for sex.

Only one other DNA sample of Sollecito was found in the cottage and that was a mixed Knox/Sollecito sample on a cigarette butt.

So, the only place his DNA could have transferred is via this cigarette butt, except the DNA found on the murder victim's bra clasp is a pure DNA sample so cannot have jumped from the cigarette butt even if we were to indulge in a game of what-if?

Add in the other hard evidence, claimed he had lied in his first police statement as Knox had asked him to. Provided a false alibi. Was up 5:02 am playing heavy metal yet claimed he slept until after 10:00am.

For crying out loud, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. Sollecito has shown you over and over again he was involved in stabbing a beautiful young woman with her whole life ahead of her and he even boass today about certain women being attracted to his because of 'my black halo'.

His DNA is on Meredith Kercher's underwear because he put it there. The knife flicks on her body and arm were inflicted by a sadistic knife fetishist.

DNA is inert and cannot move of its own accord.

Nobody by any stretch of imagination picked up his DNA and moved it to somewhere incriminating.

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh there she is. Back to defend her ketchup transfer theory of forensic genetics. Thank god.

To address your above post Vixen (for at least the 10th time over the years), the point of science, particularly something as rigorous as forensic science, is to document your procedures so that others can review them. You don't have to be in the lab or collect the evidence yourself to understand what happened. That's literally the entire point of protocols and documentation. If you had any experience at all in the scientific method that would be immediately obvious to you. But instead you just regurgitate "facts" you assimilate from your cult and bring back here pretending like you know anything.

This.

To repeat - the point of **scientific** forensic investigation is precisely so that afterwards other scientists (not involved in the trial) **CAN** look at the record, and either confirm or debunk it.

There is not one forensic-DNA expert who has confirmed Stefanoni's original work. Not one.

Of the two that guilter-nutters trot out who they say confirm that original work, one concedes that international lab protocols were not followed and the other conceded that he'd not seen the negative controls.

Meaning.... no one stood by Stefanoni's work.

It's bizarre that Harry Rag would bang on about this. Then again, it is also the reason fewer and fewer agree with him.

**BTW - the whole point of the Italian courts defending their verdicts with motivation reports is the same. So that people not involved with the trial, or even ignorant of nuances of Italian law/procedure can read it and form an informed opinion on its accuracy.

No wonder Vixen attacks these basic notions.

 

[Bill Williams]

His DNA is on Meredith Kercher's underwear because he put it there. The knife flicks on her body and arm were inflicted by a sadistic knife fetishist.

DNA is inert and cannot move of its own accord.

Nobody by any stretch of imagination picked up his DNA and moved it to somewhere incriminating.

No?

 

[LondonJohn]

I am glad you agree it is Raff's DNA.

Let's pause for a minute to let it sink in.

The deeply wicked act of taunting Mez with a knife (dozens of flick wounds on her body, especially on her hands)

Ahhh, making crap up again, huh, Vixen? Or perhaps you have actual evidence of this (I mean, obviously you don't, since it's a lie, but let's just go through the motions of intellectual honesty at least, eh...?)

plunging in a long kitchen knife upwards into her neck in a sawing action and then undressing the body by grabbing her bra and either ripping it off by force or cutting it with a knife, pulling her by the hair, dragging her body eighteen inches across the floor on a sheet/blanket and the person whose full DNA is found to be Raffaele Sollecito.

But wait! What of these other (minimum of) two unidentified males whose DNA was also undeniably found upon that tiny metal hook of the bra clasp, Vixen?

Oh no, wait, I forgot: you can't explain that, can you Vixen? Because that would force yoiu to twist and turn and rationalise some nonsense along the lines of "Oh yeah, those other two guys' DNA got there through contamination, but, uhhhh, it's OBVIOUS that Sollecito's got there through primary transfer. I mean, it's clear, right?"

But wait! This isn't the only evidence against him: his bare footprint in the victim's blood was identified on the bath mat.

But wait again, Vixen! No. No it was not (nice use of passive tense there, by the way!). I suggest you read the entirety of the court documents, including of course the Marasca SC judgement,

His bare footprints - one facing Mez' door was highlighted by luminol, a standard, much used and popular device to discover concealed blood.

Are you so far down the rabbit hole you're now cofusing Guede shoe prints with (non-existent) Sollecito foot prints?

What were his bare footprints doing around the flat anyway, when Knox durng the week she knew him, always went around his place for sex.

They were not present "around the flat", Vixen. Next.




O

nly one other DNA sample of Sollecito was found in the cottage and that was a mixed Knox/Sollecito sample on a cigarette butt.

Ah, I see you still don't understand the difference between "found" and "present".

So, the only place his DNA could have transferred is via this cigarette butt, except the DNA found on the murder victim's bra clasp is a pure DNA sample so cannot have jumped from the cigarette butt even if we were to indulge in a game of what-if?

As I said, you still don't understand the difference between "found" and "present". It's rather simple to figure out, you know?

Add in the other hard evidence, claimed he had lied in his first police statement as Knox had asked him to. Provided a false alibi. Was up 5:02 am playing heavy metal yet claimed he slept until after 10:00am.

For crying out loud, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. Sollecito has shown you over and over again he was involved in stabbing a beautiful young woman with her whole life ahead of her and he even boass today about certain women being attracted to his because of 'my black halo'.

His DNA is on Meredith Kercher's underwear because he put it there. The knife flicks on her body and arm were inflicted by a sadistic knife fetishist.

DNA is inert and cannot move of its own accord.

Nobody by any stretch of imagination picked up his DNA and moved it to somewhere incriminating.

And yet more in the same ignraont, ill-informed vein. Hey Vixen: you're wrong. About practically everything to do with this case. And men really did walk on the Moon, y'know?

 

[LondonJohn]

No?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_5397154cd64bdf2e8d.jpg[/qimg]

It's amazing isn't it?! Reminds me of that classic exchange in the Marx Bros movie "Duck Soup", featuring Chico Marx as Chicolini:

Teasdale: Your Excellency, I thought you left.
Chicolini: Oh no. I no leave.
Teasdale: But I saw you with my own eyes.
Chicolini: Well, who ya gonna believe? Me or your own eyes?

 

[bagels]

It's amazing isn't it?! Reminds me of that classic exchange in the Marx Bros movie "Duck Soup", featuring Chico Marx as Chicolini:

Teasdale: Your Excellency, I thought you left.
Chicolini: Oh no. I no leave.
Teasdale: But I saw you with my own eyes.
Chicolini: Well, who ya gonna believe? Me or your own eyes?

He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot.

- Groucho Marx on Mignini

 

[LondonJohn]

He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot.

- Groucho Marx on Mignini

It wouldn't be so bad IMO if Mignini were an idiot.

Rather, I believe him to be a cunning, malevolent operator who knows (or perhaps knew....) exactly how to use all the tricks, cheats and shortcomings available to him within the Italian criminal justice system, in order to get the results he desires - i.e. convictions, power and patronage. And all while presenting his public persona of a scrupulously fair, honest, religious, urbane man whose only concern is serving the people.

 

[Stacyhs]

Gill never saw the evidence first hand. He is merely riding on the back of the crooked Conti & Vecchiotti, who didn't even have a fridge thermometer in their labs, bodies piled high in the corridors and Veccchiotti fined €150K for refusing to test the DNA of a murderer for nine years.

And Rinaldi never saw the bath mat, yet you accept his testimony over Vinci who used the actual bath mat for his measurements.

Why do you need to continue lying about things? You have been proven wrong numerous times regarding your ridiculous claim about "bodies piled high in the corridors". That was in the University MORGUE which isn't in the same building or even the same block as C & V's lab. It had nothing to do with them, yet you repeat that same lie over and over again.

It's also a lie, perpetrated by TJMK and in an article by one Krissy G, that C & V's lab had no refrigerator thermometer. This is from the Nencini MR:

In order
to check how the sample had been conserved, we first asked Prof. Vecchiotti if it was common practice to keep a record of the preceding temperatures of the freezer. Prof. Vecchiotti essentially said to us that they were not available, as they did not have such a system of record keeping of the temperature. What we then
did, using a certified system and a certified thermometer, was to check that the conservation temperature
at that moment was -20°, which is in keeping with the requisite temperatures for the conservation of this
type of sample. This is all that we were able to check. Then, once we had identified sample (I), we returned
to our laboratories and in the presence of the parties we began operations. …We went to our laboratories
and on the same day, the 10th, we began the technical laboratory operations; as a first step we performed
measurements of the volume present in the test tube and quantification of DNA present inside the test
tube.

What is actually said is that the C & V lab did not keep a RECORD of the refrigerator temperature, not that they didn't have an actual thermometer.

Then it's reported that, after checking to see that the refrigerator is at the required -20 degree temp (which they do not say it was not), the RIS goes to their own lab and began operations (of testing) the tube. If the temperature had not been the required -20 then the sample would have been deemed useless. That indicates it was at the required temperature. Another TJMK/KrissyG*/Vixen claim proven to be a lie.

*

I will set out Chieffi’s and Nencini’s damning criticisms of Vecchiotti and Conti in the case. Crini points out, in the Nencini report, that Vecchiotti’s own laboratory fridge did not have a thermometer!

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C339/

Veccchiotti fined €150K for refusing to test the DNA of a murderer for nine years

Please provide evidence that the fine was for "refusing to test the DNA of a murderer for nine years".
Vecchiotti was fined by a CIVIL court in a lawsuit.

Here's what Vecchiotti had to say, under oath, about the Olgiata case during her testimony in the Kercher case:

CV: Yes if the chairman decides, I decide whether to respond and I assume yes. Then the case of Olgiata, which was brought precisely as an example, is the wrong example and I also tell you why. It is not true that nothing was found, it is necessary to start from an assumption in my opinion, which is the question that is asked. The question that was asked is this: to make random withdrawals ...

CPH: Excuse me, doctor ...

CV: Excuse me, excuse me, it is not true that I found a low DNA, it is not so, meanwhile we were three consultants of the Public Prosecutor, we had, had been given by the Chief Prosecutor the task of making limited and random withdrawals and this we have, formulated and written in the thing, another finding to leave it pending and not to examine it except with an explicit authorization, so we agree with the parties, we also have the videos, we filmed and took the tracks, some tracks exactly as they told us limited. Misfortune has meant that we did not take the trace that contained the DNA of the man who later confessed to being the murderer, but it was random, it is not that I or we have extracted little DNA, I would like this to be clear, not 'the profile came and someone else came the profile, it is not so. I mean that track ...

https://translate.google.com/transl...onti-Vecchiotti_Cross-Examination&prev=search


Nowhere does she say she refused to test a sample only that she needed "explicit authorization" to do so.

The only other thing I can find on the Olgiata case and Vecchiotti is on TJMK and, frankly, I take anything they say there with a huge grain of salt due to the lies and negative spin they put on everything. Unless I can see a credible and reputable source (like the actual court findings on the Olgiata/Vecchiotti lawsuit), I would dismiss anything you or they say about the case. After all, it's you and they who made the false claims about the morgue and the C & V lab and thermometer.

Why is it that every single expert or judge who disagrees with you is crooked, bent, under the control of the mafia or Mason? Do you really have no clue as to how ridiculous that is?

 

[AnimalFriendly]

his bare footprint in the victim's blood was identified on the bath mat.

And this bath mat was discovered, despite a "clean-up", because?

For crying out loud, when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

I do. You're a lunatic. Who needs to learn the meaning of the word "boass". Think 'ya meant "boast". Then again, maybe not.

 

[TruthCalls]

I am glad you agree it is Raff's DNA.

Let's pause for a minute to let it sink in.

The deeply wicked act of taunting Mez with a knife (dozens of flick wounds on her body, especially on her hands) plunging in a long kitchen knife upwards into her neck in a sawing action and then
.
.
.

And yet, without ever striking bone, cartilage or anything else other than soft tissue, never went deeper than less than half the length of the blade of the knife, and in the process caused bruising around the perimeter of the wound as if a knife hilt was striking the skin. Tough to reconcile the physical evidence with the kitchen knife.

An alternative explanation might be that a knife with a short blade, say... oh, like the one that made the other two knife wounds and left a bloody imprint on the bed sheet... made this wound as well, including the bruising. I get it this is an entirely logical explanation that would be consistent with all the evidence, but perhaps that's why it's never worked very well for the guilter community.

 

[TruthCalls]

I am glad you agree it is Raff's DNA.
.
.
.
Only one other DNA sample of Sollecito was found in the cottage and that was a mixed Knox/Sollecito sample on a cigarette butt.

So, the only place his DNA could have transferred is via this cigarette butt, except the DNA found on the murder victim's bra clasp is a pure DNA sample so cannot have jumped from the cigarette butt even if we were to indulge in a game of what-if?
.
.
.

You know, perhaps you have a point. Maybe the failure to swab for DNA anywhere on the hallway facing side of Meredith's bedroom door wasn't just incompetence on the part of the SP, perhaps it was a carefully planned effort to ensure they didn't find any more of Raffaele's DNA in the cottage.

 

[TruthCalls]

.
.
And yet more in the same ignraont, ill-informed vein. Hey Vixen: you're wrong. About practically everything to do with this case. And men really did walk on the Moon, y'know?

I gotta disagree with you on this, LJ. This isn't ignorance, this is a deliberate effort by Vixen to twist and distort the facts to suit her particular bias.

 

[TruthCalls]

I am glad you agree it is Raff's DNA.

Let's pause for a minute to let it sink in.

The deeply wicked act of taunting Mez with a knife (dozens of flick wounds on her body, especially on her hands) plunging in a long kitchen knife upwards into her neck in a sawing action and then undressing the body by grabbing her bra and either ripping it off by force or cutting it with a knife
.
.
.

So we know Guede's DNA was found on Meredith's bra. Raffaele's was found on the metal hook, a hook that is NOT exposed when a bra is being worn. So are you suggesting that Raffaele managed to grab an unexposed metal hook and rip her bra off, all the while never touching another part of the bra? And did he then hand the bra off to Guede so he could get his DNA on it?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm just trying to understand your 'vision' of how the crime transpired.

Oh, and so I don't have to make a separate post to ask this one....

How come Raffaele's DNA is 1:6 that of Meredith's if Raffaele directly transferred his DNA to the hook. Bearing in mind that he surely would have been excited/agitated, which would promote perspiration and thus increase the amount of DNA he'd be leaving behind. Thanks in advance for helping me to understand this.

 

[TruthCalls]

I am glad you agree it is Raff's DNA.

Let's pause for a minute to let it sink in.
.
.
.
But wait! This isn't the only evidence against him: his bare footprint in the victim's blood was identified on the bath mat.
His bare footprints - one facing Mez' door was highlighted by luminol, a standard, much used and popular device to discover concealed blood.
.
.
.

You know, I am so sorry for so many posts but truthfully, I should have taken your advice and paused for a minute and maybe all of your bogus comments would have sunk in and I could have questioned all of them at one time. My bad....

OK, so first... you do realize that both sides agreed there wasn't enough information on the bathmat print to do a positive identification, right? So while each side claimed they could exclude Raffaele or Guede, depending on who you were talking to, no one ever claimed - nor could they - that they positively identified anyone with the print. So to say it was "identified" is a blatant lie. At most, you could say the prosecution expert couldn't exclude Raffaele as the source for the print.

Likewise, the footprints were also not positively identified and, if anyone actually looked at the photos of the Luminol traces, I'm not certain it would be easy to definitively state they were human, let alone WHO made them.

Next, let's talk about Luminol. It is NOT used to discover concealed blood, it's used to discover the POSSIBLE presence of blood. Possible, as in a presumptive test. And apparently you forgot there was another standard, much used and popular device to discover the possible presence of blood (that would be TMB) and it indicated that ALL Luminol samples were not blood. And I'm sure it just slipped your mind that DNA analysis on all but three of the traces revealed Meredith's profile was not present. Meanwhile, back in forensic school 101 they continue to teach future forensic technicians that a sample that is TMB negative, and does not contain the DNA profile of the victim, is NOT a sample made from the blood of the victim. But hell, you knew all this... who am I to tell you.

OK, I *think* I'm done with your post. But I do reserve the right to revisit it if need be...

 

[Stacyhs]

I am glad you agree it is Raff's DNA.

I do. I've have never disputed that so don't consider my agreement as some kind of victory on your part.

Let's pause for a minute to let it sink in.

The deeply wicked act of taunting Mez with a knife (dozens of flick wounds on her body, especially on her hands) plunging in a long kitchen knife upwards into her neck in a sawing action and then undressing the body by grabbing her bra and either ripping it off by force or cutting it with a knife, pulling her by the hair, dragging her body eighteen inches across the floor on a sheet/blanket and the person whose full DNA is found to be Raffaele Sollecito.

LOL! I laughed so hard at your reasoning, I couldn't type a reply for a full minute. All that supposed physical interaction and is his DNA found on the knife? No. On her jacket? No. On her jeans? No. On her body? No. On the sheet or duvet? No. But whose DNA is found on and in the body, on her purse, on her jacket, on her bra strap? Why...that would be Guede's! Whose bloody shoe prints are found around the body? Sollecito's? No. What about fingerprints? Nope. That would be Guede yet again. Honestly, Vix...your attempt to show Sollecito was involved by listing all the above supposed interaction only supports that Sollecito wasn't involved.

But wait! This isn't the only evidence against him: his bare footprint in the victim's blood was identified on the bath mat.

But wait! It was identified as NOT being Sollecito's by Vinci. Not even Massei could decide who it belonged to.

His bare footprints - one facing Mez' door was highlighted by luminol, a standard, much used and popular device to discover concealed blood.

And tested as blood negative by TMB, a standard, much used and popular device to rule out the presence of blood.

What were his bare footprints doing around the flat anyway, when Knox durng the week she knew him, always went around his place for sex.

You mean the two footprints that were only held to be compatible with Sollecito but devoid of his DNA and never compared to the foot ofm say, Silenzi who always went around to Meredith's apartment for sex?

Only one other DNA sample of Sollecito was found in the cottage and that was a mixed Knox/Sollecito sample on a cigarette butt.
So, the only place his DNA could have transferred is via this cigarette butt, except the DNA found on the murder victim's bra clasp is a pure DNA sample so cannot have jumped from the cigarette butt even if we were to indulge in a game of what-if?

They also didn't bother to test the outside of MK's door or the handle which were known to have been touched by Sollecito. Great police work there! Nah, the police never touched that door or handle and then went on to touch other things. They were so very good about changing gloves as the video shows!

Add in the other hard evidence, claimed he had lied in his first police statement as Knox had asked him to. Provided a false alibi. Was up 5:02 am playing heavy metal yet claimed he slept until after 10:00am.

After a coercive and illegal interrogation.

Did RS ever deny he was up early that morning listening to music? NO. He was never asked. If I get up early to go to the bathroom and then go back to bed and I'm asked when I got up, am I lying because didn't mention getting up to go pee? It was inconsequential to the murder as far as RS was concerned to not worth mentioning.

For crying out loud, when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

Oh, I do! Believe me. And when someone lies about things and misrepresents things and twists things beyond recognition, I see her for exactly what she is.

Sollecito has shown you over and over again he was involved in stabbing a beautiful young woman with her whole life ahead of her and he even boass today about certain women being attracted to his because of 'my black halo'.

Nonesense. The evidence has shown me otherwise. It's you that refuses to see it.

His DNA is on Meredith Kercher's underwear because he put it there.

By contamination as the experts and SC found.

The knife flicks on her body and arm were inflicted by a sadistic knife fetishist.

True. That Guede really had a thing for knives. Ask Tramontano and Del Prato.

DNA is inert and cannot move of its own accord.

True. It takes something to transfer it, like gloves, shoes, etc.

Nobody by any stretch of imagination picked up his DNA and moved it to somewhere incriminating.

The experts and the SC disagree with you. But that's nothing new.

 

[Stacyhs]

And this bath mat was discovered, despite a "clean-up", because?

What? You don't find plausible Vixen's explanation that they left it there and pointed it out to the police because they wanted to "put one over" on the police and to show how clever they were? Seems perfectly logical to me.

 

[Stacyhs]

But that quote was not given as part of his testimony. It was given in a newspaper interview. So you are wrong that the quote you provided was made by a judge and during Novelli's testimony.

Pity for you that Marasca Bruno accepted the testimony of Conti and Vecchiotti regarding the contamination over Novelli.

It says much about your moral standards you think a corrupt judges is great.

Just can't admit you were wrong, can ya? Rather than do the adult thing, you resort to a ....there's just no other word to use...stupid accusation.

When one has to resort to claiming several judges and dozens of experts are 'corrupt' for the sole reason that they don't agree on something, then one should look at one's own moral standards. But that would take some intellectual honesty which 'one' is sorely lacking.

 

[Stacyhs]

The pro-Knox nutters like to use as an example of DNA transfer talcum powder. They will sprinkle it on their hands and then go around touching each other and everything 'to show how Raff's DNA spread'.

Present evidence that "pro-Knox nutters" have done this and this isn't just another one of your...ahem...'truth alternatives'. I won't hold my breath.

Only an ignorant moron would be convinced by such a claim for DNA is not contained in talcum powder nor in any powdery substance. It is possible you might pick up some DNA in dandruff, dandruff being associated with greasy hair and hair follicles do contain DNA.

Only an ignorant moron would think that was the point of a powder transfer demonstration. It's not to show that DNA is in talcum powder, but to demonstrate how transfer occurs. That's why this technique used in schools to demonstrate how germs are transferred and why washing hands is so important.

To use the powder to show how germs are spread through contact, shake a small amount of the powder into the palm of your hand and shake hands with several other people. Use the ultraviolet lamp to demonstrate that you have transferred "germs" to them.

It's really not a very difficult concept to understand...for most people.

 

[Methos]

Gill never saw the evidence first hand. He is merely riding on the back of the crooked Conti & Vecchiotti, who didn't even have a fridge thermometer in their labs, bodies piled high in the corridors and Veccchiotti fined €150K for refusing to test the DNA of a murderer for nine years.

First Higlight:
Berti Barni report page 7...

second Highlight: This one has been dealt with on IA/IIP some time ago...

You might want to explain what "Veccchiotti fined €150K for refusing to test the DNA of a murderer for nine years" is supposed to mean...

 

[bagels]

Present evidence that "pro-Knox nutters" have done this and this isn't just another one of your...ahem...'truth alternatives'. I won't hold my breath.

Pro-knox nutter is a funny term considering it describes people who don't think a standing national court verdict was rigged by the mafia.

It's always amusing to remind oneself that from Vixen's point of view the evidence against Knox is as compelling and reliable as the evidence against any lawfully convicted and sentenced murderer so our support for her in particular, while not simultaneously supporting every murderer ever, must be from random unrelated factors, and these factors are themselves unrelated to the fact that Knox happened to be accomplices with a guy that had mafia contacts to rig the final court verdict to reinforce our misguided view.

Or to put it simply, out of the thousands and thousands of murderers we could've chosen to support, where our dreams of acquittal would be quickly dashed by an uncontroversial conviction, we happened by random chance to pick a murderer who would later be wrongfully acquitted by unrelated corrupted agents.

This somehow doesn't resemble to Vixen at all a precarious bout of mental gymnastics to maintain a pro guilt view in the face of astonishing signs to the contrary, but is in fact accepted by her without hesitation, note, or remark.

But remember, we're the nutters