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2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker - Part II

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Venom said:
It doesn't refute Warren being pressured to support Medicare For All.

As Warren herself wrote in that paper it may not always be politically expedient. But she can't risk not being aligned with Bernie on this and a few other issues. If Sanders wasn't there I'd say there's a good chance she'd be pushing some lesser universal healthcare option.
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Bernie's 2016 run opened up political space for a larger push for single payer, for sure.

But I really don't think she'd be running on something farther to the right if Sanders wasn't running right now. Single payer is what she thinks is best, and she's thought that for a long time.
And she also know that pushing for something is the largest part of what makes it politically possible.
 
acbytesla said:
I think it is a mistake to just write these people off as hateful. No one thinks of themselves as hateful. Yes, it is xenophobic. People afraid of the unknown and of change. The world is changing at breaknecking speed and their position in this world feels threatened. Just ignoring this phenomenon and dismissing how this affecting them is I believe a mistake.
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Either way, using lies to "message" to frightened people is pretty easy.
 
kellyb said:
I know a couple of Boomers elsewhere on the net who love Biden, but are really digging this newer, gayer, slightly less racist version, now that he's dropped the Mr NiceGuy act.

To be fair, Pete would do better in a debate against Trump, for sure. Biden's mind slippage must be bothering his fans. Trying to hand wave it all away as "gaffs" can only take you so far.
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He's trying to position himself as the moderate alternative in the event Biden implodes. It's a pretty reasonable strategy. It gives him a lane to run in (actually this was supposed to be Harris' lane). The problem is that he's unlikely to pick up Biden's most loyal supporters (African-Americans).
 
angrysoba said:
That's a separate issue.

kellyb was responding to Venom's rhetorical question:

"Was Warren for any kind of single payer before Sanders started pushing the new Medicare for All?" as evidence that Warren was pushed left by Sanders' 2016 run.

kellyb's Warren quote from 2008, categorically demonstrates that yes, she was in favour of it long before Sanders' run.

Your separate point about Warren's messaging is more difficult to answer because you haven't given any examples of Warren's terrible messaging, and have merely asserted it.

We still want to know what you base that judgment on, not what your credentials are.
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Venom said:
It doesn't refute Warren being pressured to support Medicare For All.
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It refutes your specific question:

"Was Warren for any kind of single payer before Sanders started pushing the new Medicare for All?"

Answer: YES!
 
acbytesla said:
I mostly agree with you. But when i say Republicans are generally better when it comes to messaging, its that they know how to break it down to simple themes.
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yeah, but people growing up in a complicated world learn to be suspicious of simple themes.
 
Venom said:
refute? lol

I was sincerely asking.
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This was an assertion:

there's reasons to believe Warren was pressured into many of her positions from the progressive faction of Democrats,
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...and then you used a question about M4A to illustrate the point, but the evidence on her and M4A is that she's favored it since 2008, at least.
 
angrysoba said:
:confused:
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He's saying it was a non-rhetorical question, so it couldn't be "refuted."

But in the context of the discussion, it actually was presented as a rhetorical question, since it was given in response to my question about why someone would think "Warren was pressured into many of her positions from the progressive faction of Democrats."
 
Venom said:
It doesn't refute Warren being pressured to support Medicare For All.

As Warren herself wrote in that paper it may not always be politically expedient. But she can't risk not being aligned with Bernie on this and a few other issues. If Sanders wasn't there I'd say there's a good chance she'd be pushing some lesser universal healthcare option.
Click to expand...

kellyb said:
Bernie's 2016 run opened up political space for a larger push for single payer, for sure.

But I really don't think she'd be running on something farther to the right if Sanders wasn't running right now. Single payer is what she thinks is best, and she's thought that for a long time.
And she also know that pushing for something is the largest part of what makes it politically possible.
Click to expand...

Mmm. I suspect that this entire conversation is a little bit off track. Warren officially co-sponsored or supported a fair range of healthcare bills, including M4A but very much not limited to M4A. She's been pretty clear about where her focus actually is since long, long before she was running for President - dealing with the serious problem that is medical bankruptcies, rather than being wedded to any particular approach to doing so. She's done a good job of showing that she quite prefers a good single payer plan that cuts a whole bunch of inefficiency out of the system and is willing to fight for it, but her history shows that she's willing to compromise and support just about anything that would actually be good and a notable improvement.




kellyb said:
I think they say plenty of things, but their target audience eats, sleeps, and breathes hate, and are horrifyingly misinformed, on top.

It's easy to message to people with this large, exposed, pulsing lizard brain that's ravenous for more racism, sexism, and general xenophobia.
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The highlighted is the only part of this that's actually true, most of the time, much as I'd use disinformed more than misinformed. It's not just misinformed, though...

acbytesla said:
I mostly agree with you. But when i say Republicans are generally better when it comes to messaging, its that they know how to break it down to simple themes.
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That's a bit of it, but not all of it. Much of it is the framing (there actually is powerful difference between characterizing someone as pro-women's rights and characterizing them as pro-abortion, for example), the us vs them propaganda bubble that lets the propagandists foster and exploit the authoritarian tendencies well, and the knowledge of how to weaponize bias. Going a bit further, I would dare to say that much of the root problem lies more with libertarian businessmen and white supremacists and how they've pretty well taken over the Republican Party quietly and turned the tendency towards group loyalty against conservatives, so they reflexively feel the need to defend that which they wouldn't normally defend, were it to come without strings attached.
 
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Aridas said:
She's been pretty clear about where her focus actually is since long, long before she was running for President - dealing with the serious problem that is medical bankruptcies, rather than being wedded to any particular approach to doing so. .
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She actually coined the term "medical bankruptcy" in the academic literature, almost 20 years ago now.

Third one down, here:


https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q="medical+bankruptcy"&hl=en&as_sdt=0,43&as_ylo=1970&as_yhi=2003
 
Venom said:
It doesn't refute Warren being pressured to support Medicare For All.

As Warren herself wrote in that paper it may not always be politically expedient.
Click to expand...
Aridas said:
Warren officially co-sponsored or supported a fair range of healthcare bills, including M4A but very much not limited to M4A... dealing with the serious problem that is medical bankruptcies, rather than being wedded to any particular approach to doing so.
Click to expand...
It was only a month or two ago that her responses to simple questions of whether she's in favor of M4A would be almost-Jordan-Peterson-like rambling about how good other plans were too, no matter how far off from it those other plans were. That's not how somebody who's in favor of it would talk; that's how somebody who wants to find something else to put in its way would talk.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
yeah, but people growing up in a complicated world learn to be suspicious of simple themes.
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That is what you would think to be true, but most people don't think deeply. Its not that they are unable but because it's hard. And frankly I distrust arguments that are presented in complex terms. That the individual is trying to snowball me.

What is it they say?

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull ****."
 
Of the current aspirants, my choice is a Warren/Buttigieg ticket. Warren is being pushed to the left for the primaries, but she'll steer back toward the center if nominated. By which I mean that her craziest ideas will be tempered by reality once she no longer has to out-crazy Bernie just to get votes. Pete needs seasoning, and four years as VP will give him the political experience he needs. I suspect he will make a good politician (contradiction in terms notwithstanding) when he's older.
 
DallasDad said:
Of the current aspirants, my choice is a Warren/Buttigieg ticket. Warren is being pushed to the left for the primaries, but she'll steer back toward the center if nominated. By which I mean that her craziest ideas will be tempered by reality once she no longer has to out-crazy Bernie just to get votes. Pete needs seasoning, and four years as VP will give him the political experience he needs. I suspect he will make a good politician (contradiction in terms notwithstanding) when he's older.
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I hope the next liberal Democratic president likes signing into law Kyrstin Sinema's policy positions.
 
I think what we'll end up with is the current Medicare system expanded to all. You then buy supplements as we do now. Tne Medicaid group gets the supplement paid by th gov't. Retirees pay some of the supplement. Employers can pay it or add a different supplement for their group. Biden proposed a healthcare $ cap per year.
 
Tero said:
I think what we'll end up with is the current Medicare system expanded to all. You then buy supplements as we do now. Tne Medicaid group gets the supplement paid by th gov't. Retirees pay some of the supplement. Employers can pay it or add a different supplement for their group. Biden proposed a healthcare $ cap per year.
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Might be difficult considering Medicare is substantially more expensive than any employer insurance.
 
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