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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

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If Guede was convicted of aggravated murder for being 'an accessory' (IOW it was deemed he did not wield the fatal blow) to the murder, in association with multiple others, then it follows that as Knox (100% definitely) and 'almost certainly' Sollecito were also present (let's face it they invented fake alibis and lied numerous times) then one does have to ask in which way Marasca-Bruno holds it i 'insufficient evidence' in their case.

Based on what evidence? The kitchen knife that was deemed to only be "compatible" along with any other similar knife but deemed "incompatible" with the other wounds? The kitchen knife that was found to have no trace of blood on it? The kitchen knife that Stefanoni claimed had Kercher's DNA on it which the independent experts found to be unfounded in science? Was it the DNA and fingerprints of Knox and Sollecito found in and on Kercher or their bloody prints in the murder room?

Do I really have to point out that the ONLY evidence of anyone else in that room besides Kercher belongs to Guede? You also ignore the cuts on Guede's hand and the missing knife which left its bloody outline on Kercher's sheet. A knife which could have left ALL the knife wounds inflicted on the victim.

Face it, Vix. The finding by the court that Guede didn't wield the knife and that others were involved in Kercher's murder is not based on facts or science. It may be a judicial fact, but it is not a factual truth. But cling to it as tightly as you can because it's all you've got left.
 
If Guede was convicted of aggravated murder for being 'an accessory' (IOW it was deemed he did not wield the fatal blow) to the murder, in association with multiple others, then it follows that as Knox (100% definitely) and 'almost certainly' Sollecito were also present (let's face it they invented fake alibis and lied numerous times) then one does have to ask in which way Marasca-Bruno holds it i 'insufficient evidence' in their case.

Vixen, as well as the other guilter-nutters, show a jaw-dropping commitment to the lack of due process. Why?

Vixen, above, infers Knox's and Sollecito's guilt, solely on what was found as a "judicial fact" at Rudy Guede's trial.

Here're the facts:

1. Guede's trial was a fast-track trial, which is described as being a normal trial with the "evidence phase" missing. (Even though it is not 100% accurate to say, then, that the evidence cited is stipulated by both sides - admitted to rather than proven - that is in essence what it is. There is no cross-examination, no testing of evidence at all. Therefore what you read in that trial's motivation report is not the result of testing.)

2. Neither Sollecito nor Knox had legal representation at that trial, no say in the negotiation which resulted in it being made "fast track", and no say in what bits of evidence were stipulated to.​
Therefore, how on earth can one draw ANY conclusions about AK and RS who at the time were still facing trial for the charges against them - all charges and convictions, save calunnia, were eventually annuled?

It is the guilter-nutter sleight-of-hand which has plagued the online discussion of this case - finally resolved in 2015 qith acquittals, and in 2019 with the ECHR ruling the way it did about calunnia.

But we do know that the guilter-nutters desire to convict people, or accept judicial facts both generated at trials in which they had no representation.
 
The "3 seconds" stuff (and similar) is subject to gross misinterpretation and misunderstanding by pro-guilt commentators and the convicting lower courts alike.

The call durations given in the logs refer explicitly and solely to the CONNECTED times. That is to say, the time elapsed after a connection to an open line was made. And in turn, that is to say it does not include the time during which the called party's phone was ringing.

See, the ignorant pro-guilt commentators and convicting courts seem to be under the impression that if, say, a call is listed in the records as being of a 3-second duration, this somehow means that Knox (in your case above) called Kercher's Italian phone, let it ring for just three seconds, then hung up. In other words, they interpret it as evidence that Knox was just going through the motions of calling Kercher, without even giving the phone enough chance to be answered (the follow-on "conclusion" being that Knox knew Kercher was dead, but wanted to try to establish a claim that she'd been calling Kercher out of concern etc).

But, as I said, the 3 seconds strictly refers to the time of connection of the call. And in the case of Kercher's Italian phone, this means the time of connection to the Italian voicemail message on Kercher's Italian phone. So what actually happened was that Knox called Kercher's Italian phone, found it diverted to voicemail, and had 3 seconds to realise that this was what was happening before hanging up (Knox had already tried several times to reach Kercher on this number, and there was little point in her leaving voicemail messages at this point, so it was entirely reasonable for Knox to terminate the call after 3 seconds of the voicemail message).

And to answer your further question, Kercher's Italian phone was actually switched OFF from around 10pm on 1st November until the Postal Police turned it on around 12pm (lunchtime) on 2nd November. So in fact Kercher's Italian phone was not ringing at all when it was dialled - it was diverting straight to voicemail. A fact which further negates the incorrect and misleading "conclusion" attempted by pro-guilt commentators.

Kercher's Italian phone was switched off on the night of the murder. By someone. And Kercher's English phone was left switched on on the night of the murder. However, the strange short-code mis-dialling on Kercher's English phone at around 10pm on the night of the murder tends to suggest that someone was fiddling with the phone trying to do something with it. And it's hardly unreasonable to suggest that this someone was trying to turn off the English phone, but was perhaps unfamiliar with the handset and the English language menus and screen displays.

My long-held supposition is that Guede, having killed Kercher, took both her phones, with the intention of turning both of them off before he left the cottage (he didn't want the phones ringing when they were in his possession after he left the cottage, for obvious reasons). He managed to turn off the Italian one easily, but tried and failed to turn off the English one (doing those strange aborted mis-dials in the process). He therefore had no choice but to leave the English one switched on. And then, when that English phone suddenly sounded and lit up with the incoming MMS message, almost certainly while Guede was walking along the road round the outside of the old city wall near to Parc Sant'Angelo, his fears about being caught out by the phones intensified and he decided to simply ditch both phones. He hurled them into what he thought was scrubby hillside, but what was in fact the neatly-tended garden of Sig.a Lara.
Many thanks for all the info LJ. There were 2 phones involved so I wasn't sure which phone was which since the Wiki article is a bit remiss in that respect.

Hoots
 
Filomena has a sub 3 second duration call to Meredith as well but it's ignored by guilters because. All the technical details surrounding this case have been exhaustively discussed in this thread, multiple times.

OK, but do we have a source for this?

Hoots
 
OK, but do we have a source for this?

Hoots

Of course we have ;) : Romanelli's cellphone log.

It's the call made at 12:16:34 on Nov 2nd, 2007.
447841131571 is Meredith Kercher's "English" phone
3471073006 is Romanelli's number
Just for the record: it's interesting that Romanelli didn't call Meredith Kercher's "Italian" phone (3484673711)...
 
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This is from Mrs Lana's deposition dated Nov 2nd, 2007 at 11:50.



Looks like Meredith Kercher's Italian phone was already in the hands of the postal police at that time... and apparently turned off, at least that would explain the duration of 3 seconds...

Sorry Methos, let me get this straight, I don't do Italian. Is Elizabetta Lana being asked these questions at her home at 11.50am on 2nd Nov? The reason I am asking is that if the postal cops are at Lana's home at that time, it makes it virtually impossible for them to be at VDP prior to Raffaele's 112 call to the Caribinieri which has long since been a bone of contention.

The year 2007, on the 2nd of November, at 11.50, in Perugia, in the premises of the Postal and Communications Police Department for Umbria.
Report to the undersigned Officer of P.G. Commissioner Capo Filippo Bartolozzi, belonging to the Office indicated in the epigraph, there is the subject in generalized object that, in relation to the verifications carried out by this office, on the cellular user 3484673711, answers the following questions.
Question: "Do you know the telephone user 3484673711?"
Answer: No, I don't know her. "
Question: "Does ROMANELLI know that Filomena is 28 years old?" .Answer: No,

What's all this "Does ROMANELLI know that Filomena is 28 years old?". Is it a security question or what?

Hoots
 
OK, but do we have a source for this?

Hoots

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...7-11-03-Log-cellphone-Vodaphone-Romanelli.pdf

The call at 12:16 is Filomena calling Meredith's UK cell. Its duration is 1 second.

Eventually though its time to let go of this random trivia. I can't go pull up a phone log of some random roommate of a Ted Bundy victim, because it's not relevant to the primary facts of the case and you don't need to argue the minutiae of 10,000 case files to determine what happened in a crime.

The primary facts of the Kercher case are she was found stabbed to death surrounded by the bloody prints of a known knife carrying burglar who left all the primary time-stamped evidence at the scene and whose DNA was discovered in the rapekit. And nothing, including the burglar's own statements, connected him to any accomplices.

That's not enough for the guilters, cause they be crazy.
 
Sorry Methos, let me get this straight, I don't do Italian. Is Elizabetta Lana being asked these questions at her home at 11.50am on 2nd Nov? The reason I am asking is that if the postal cops are at Lana's home at that time, it makes it virtually impossible for them to be at VDP prior to Raffaele's 112 call to the Caribinieri which has long since been a bone of contention.

The year 2007, on the 2nd of November, at 11.50, in Perugia, in the premises of the Postal and Communications Police Department for Umbria.
Report to the undersigned Officer of P.G. Commissioner Capo Filippo Bartolozzi, belonging to the Office indicated in the epigraph, there is the subject in generalized object that, in relation to the verifications carried out by this office, on the cellular user 3484673711, answers the following questions.
Question: "Do you know the telephone user 3484673711?"
Answer: No, I don't know her. "
Question: "Does ROMANELLI know that Filomena is 28 years old?" .Answer: No,

What's all this "Does ROMANELLI know that Filomena is 28 years old?". Is it a security question or what?

Hoots

Sorry, I just wanted to give you the original Italian (FWIW in a "conversation" with Harry the Rag Machine ;) ). The deposition is a kind of "transcript" of a short Q/A Postal Police officer Bartolozzi had wit Mrs Lana at the police station in Perugia at 11:50 on November 2, 2007.
Apparently by this time Kercher's "Italian" phone number 3484673711 had been traced to Filomena Romanelli.

The questions asked are :
Do you know the phone number 3484673711?
No.
Do you know 28 year old Filomena Romanelli?
No,...

You are right on the "it makes it virtually impossible for them to be at VDP prior to Raffaele's 112 call to the Caribinieri" part, because the Questura is even further away from VDP than the Lana's house...

According to this document the number 3484673711 was traced to Romanelli at 11:38 on Nov 2, 2007...
 
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Sorry Methos, let me get this straight, I don't do Italian. Is Elizabetta Lana being asked these questions at her home at 11.50am on 2nd Nov? The reason I am asking is that if the postal cops are at Lana's home at that time, it makes it virtually impossible for them to be at VDP prior to Raffaele's 112 call to the Caribinieri which has long since been a bone of contention. >snip<

All the judges, even Massei, accepted that the postal police did not arrive before the 112 calls were made by Sollecito as per the evidence. That the PGP argue/argued otherwise is indicative of their refusal to accept evidence that clearly contradicts what they want/need to believe.
 
All the judges, even Massei, accepted that the postal police did not arrive before the 112 calls were made by Sollecito as per the evidence. That the PGP argue/argued otherwise is indicative of their refusal to accept evidence that clearly contradicts what they want/need to believe.

No matter what even the convicting judges found about the timing of Raffaele's 112 call, the guilter nutters have kept it as part of their supposed "all the other evidence" .......

...... meaning they still think Raffaele had called 112 **after** the postal-police's arrival, even though all judges found he'd called before.

Go through each item in their "all the other evidence" list, and each has similar issues. Yet they think all these factoids are additive, and mean something in total.

No less than genuine, accredited Italian academic and lawyer Stefano Maffei reasons this way. Even though he's the only one..... which by itself should mean something.
 
"Crap" is not mathematics where two negatives make a positive. Crap + crap still equals crap.
 
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Sorry Methos, let me get this straight, I don't do Italian. Is Elizabetta Lana being asked these questions at her home at 11.50am on 2nd Nov? The reason I am asking is that if the postal cops are at Lana's home at that time, it makes it virtually impossible for them to be at VDP prior to Raffaele's 112 call to the Caribinieri which has long since been a bone of contention. >snip<

All the judges, even Massei, accepted that the postal police did not arrive before the 112 calls were made by Sollecito as per the evidence. That the PGP argue/argued otherwise is indicative of their refusal to accept evidence that clearly contradicts what they want/need to believe.
Nencini did not: From the TMoMK translation of Nencini:
As it is easy to observe from the reading of the statements cited above, none of the persons present was able to locate the two defendants in the commotion preceding the breaking down of the access door to Meredith Kercher’s room. In particular, the Postal Police officers themselves had been separated in the dwelling, and while Fabio Marzi was taken by Amanda Marie Knox to look at the drops of blood, Inspector Battistelli was on the other hand following the long conversation that took place before the door was forced open. It is a fact that in the commotion preceding the door being forced open and the phase of the door being forced open fully four witnesses of the six people present, other than the defendants, were not able to physically place Raffaele Sollecito inside the apartment. Furthermore, one of the officers of the State Police placed the defendant outside the apartment.
I'll find you the original Italian, but it's getting late here :(
It would be funny if it weren't so sad, Nencini is basing his "Sollecito called the carabinieri after the postal police arrived, on Sollecito not being seen by the "witnesses" for some time... he simply ignores that Knox is heard in the audio recording of the call... What about her?

But Nencini also was the judge who said in that interview he gave to Sarzanini
Neanche rispetto alla sentenza emessa nei confronti di Rudy Guede?
«Effettivamente la particolarità del processo era proprio questa: una persona già condannata con rito abbreviato e in via definitiva per concorso nello stesso omicidio. La Cassazione ci chiedeva di valutare il ruolo dei concorrenti. Noi avremmo potuto dire che non erano i due imputati, motivandolo in maniera convincente. Ma non abbiamo ritenuto fosse questa la verità».
As translated by Andrea Vogt:
Not even with regard to the decision handed down in Rudy Guede’s case?
“Effectively the specifics of the case was this: there was a person already convicted via fast-track, and definitively, for concourse in the same homicide. The Court of Cassation was asking us to consider who participated and their roles. We could have said that the two accused weren’t there, and then provided convincing reasoning, but we did not believe this to be the truth.”
...

"We could have said that the two accused weren’t there, and then provided convincing reasoning"... :(
 
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I stand corrected: Nencini was the lone judge who chose to ignore the compelling evidence that the calls were made before the police arrived...evidence that all other judges accepted.
Nencini ignored the phone records of Altieri showing he and Zaroli were still at their homes at 12:47 when Altieri phoned Zaroli for a ride to the cottage. Zaroli then drove to Altieri's and from there to the cottage. They testified there was heavy traffic and they drove slowly. Nencini seems to think this was possible in 4 to 7 minutes as the 112 calls were at 12:51 and 12:54.

No wonder Nencini was overturned.
 
Finally a chance to re-post this:

6aNskxG.jpg
 
Thanks for your input and help. I think I've got Rag's head down for the moment. I've sparred with Rag on YouTube for a few years now, he shows the same kind of die-hard resilience that you guys are encountering here. You can prove Rag wrong on multiple points such as the knife, bra-clasp, bloody footprints, mixed blood but he just repeats the same old stuff on another thread. His current argument is the same old one of the multiple alleged lies of K&S being indicative of guilt not by their quality but by their quantity. As I've said to Rag even if these alleged lies were true, the act of exposing them (collectively or individually) still does not place K&S at VDP and involve them in the murder of Meredith. So we'll see how he gets on with that one.

It has to be said that Rag wouldn't last 5 minutes over here, his sorry ass would be kicked up and down the forum. Hah!

Hoots
 
Thanks for your input and help. I think I've got Rag's head down for the moment. I've sparred with Rag on YouTube for a few years now, he shows the same kind of die-hard resilience that you guys are encountering here. You can prove Rag wrong on multiple points such as the knife, bra-clasp, bloody footprints, mixed blood but he just repeats the same old stuff on another thread. His current argument is the same old one of the multiple alleged lies of K&S being indicative of guilt not by their quality but by their quantity. As I've said to Rag even if these alleged lies were true, the act of exposing them (collectively or individually) still does not place K&S at VDP and involve them in the murder of Meredith. So we'll see how he gets on with that one.

It has to be said that Rag wouldn't last 5 minutes over here, his sorry ass would be kicked up and down the forum. Hah!

Hoots
TomG, I am wondering where on YouTube this is going on. Link?
 
His current argument is the same old one of the multiple alleged lies of K&S being indicative of guilt not by their quality but by their quantity. As I've said to Rag even if these alleged lies were true, the act of exposing them (collectively or individually) still does not place K&S at VDP and involve them in the murder of Meredith. So we'll see how he gets on with that one.

Harry Rag at least once had the decency to list and itemize what he claimed had been lies. I compiled that list years ago, and it's on this thread somewhere.

There had been approximately 13 of them, all originating in that period when cops controlled what AK or RS knew. Most were attributed to RS, the main "lie" Knox was accused of was against Lumumba, and in 2019 the ECHR ruled that that one had been the result of a fraudulent interrogation.

But you're quite right, adopting the reasoning of the M/B report, all of that is irrelevant to guilt, because even if true it still doesn't defeat the decisive issue, that no forensics of either of the pair had been found in the murder room.
 
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