The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

[Vixen]

I'm flying on Condor (Cook subsidiary) to Frankfurt next week. Thank goodness they're flying as usual ...for now. Seeking bridge loan from German gov't as they were the only profitable business for TC. They have the only decently priced BC fare from the US West Coast to Europe.

This is what happens when you go for the budget/cheapo flights.

 

[Vixen]

Completely agree, but I always found the (ahem) logic employed by both Massei and Nencini to find Curatolo credible to be one of the most "disgracefully clear" examples of the fundamental flaws in their approach. I can't tell you how many times I've read those passages, only to have my BP rise as my head spins over the sheer ignorance and bias used in their reasoning. It is clear they started with the premise that Curatolo saw Amanda and Raffaele on the night of the murder, they then work backwards in a desperate effort to rationalize or minimize all of the various contradictions in order to make it work.

Oh dear. It looks like you missed your vocation as a criminal defence barrister.

 

[Vixen]

One's eye-balls roll out when reading Massei's description of what Curatolo might have meant when he used the phrase, "before midnight". There must be something lost in translation - even the PMF translation from Italian into English!!! - because while considering the apparent Italian idiom, "before midnight", Judge Massei finally settles on a time of 23:00 (11 pm) for the latest time Curatolo would have seen Amanda Knox in the Piazza Grimana.

It is no wonder that Massei's overall report if over 430+ pages, with these kinds of nonsensical gymnastics. It is also no wonder that the final Marasca-Bruno report comes in at about 55+ pages. This was tragically a very straightforward crime.

Rudy did it - unless one wants to prove that other factoids factor in....

Ugh. Can't unsee that. Put them away.

 

[Vixen]

I completely agree. Finding Curatolo in any way credible was ridiculous. Equally ridiculous was Nara Capezalli. This woman claimed to have seen posters of Guede, Knox, and Sollecito the next morning! She says she was told about it by some boys also the next morning after hearing the scream but the crime had not even been discovered yet.
I also note that the same journalist, Antioco Fois, incredibly 'discovered' not only Curatolo and Capezalli, but also Quintavalle. All came forward with his urging.

Hilarious.

 

[Vixen]

Yes - it would appear that Guede's murder conviction (and it IS a murder conviction) had had a little "joint enterprise" leger-de-main special sauce applied to it by the ever-surprising Italian criminal justice system, with the (totally unnecessary and unrequired in the adversarial system it's supposed now to be*...) "judicial truth" of the crime being that Guede was a party to the murder but did not actually stab Kercher himself. All, of course, because the prosecution knew full well that the defence (obviously) and the courts would never object to a proposition in which someone other than Guede had done the stabbing, and that therefore this would give the prosecution a clear mandate and rationale for continuing its pursuit of Knox and Sollecito as "vicious knife-wielding maniacs".......



I am pretty sure I've made this point before, but (in a different context, admittedly) I happened upon a repeat of an old episode of "Air Crash Investigation" (I believe it's called "Mayday" in North America) late last night after I got home. It was the episode dealing with the Italian disaster known as the "Ustica Massacre", in which an aircraft exploded and broke apart at altitude over the sea, with dozens killed, in around the early 80s (IIRC). The judicial investigation went on - shockingly and unnecessarily - for decades.

The Italian Government became convinced that the aircraft had been shot down (accidentally) by a French Navy ship that had been in the general area. But three separate international expert investigations showed conclusively that the aircraft had instead been brought down by a bomb placed onto the aircraft before its departure (and a bomb whose precise position on board the aircraft could even be determined with high scientific accuracy). The scientific evidence of a bomb was so accurate and reliable that the international expert reports were unequivocal and certain in their conclusions.

But..... Italy "preferred" the story of a missile discharge from a foreign navy to the story in which its own airport security had been compromised to allow a bomb to be placed onto the aircraft. So, when the Supreme Court issued its final judgement on the case, in something like 2013 or 2014, it decided that the "judicial truth" was that the aircraft had been destroyed by an inadvertant French missile strike.

One (and maybe two) well-qualified commentators to the programme remarked explicitly that if you want courts to do their jobs properly in determining responsibility, Italy is perhaps the very worst country which pretends to "first world" status in which to expect that to happen. It IMMEDIATELY brought to mind the farcical Chieffi SC panel, together of course with the Massei and Nencini courts, in the Knox/Sollecito trials process.

Thank goodness - and thank justice - for the (apparently very rare) shining examples in the Italian criminal justice system such as the Marasca SC panel and the Hellmann court.



*And we can remind ourselves again here that ALL that the Italian courts were required to decide in the Guede case - nothing more and nothing less - was simply whether there was sufficient credible, reliable evidence to constitute (in the courts' opinions) proof BARD that Guede had committed each of the crimes with which he was charged. That's all. On the murder charge, for example, all the courts needed to conclude was that there was sufficient credible, reliable evidence that Guede had been wholly party to the murder** to pronounce him guilty on that charge - there was no need whatsoever to speculate upon whether or not he'd actually stabbed Kercher, when there was ZERO evidence to show whether he had or he had not done so.



**and there was: the combination of the bloody handprint on Kercher's pillowcase, the Skype call to Benedetti, the huge holes in Guede's story, his clea attempt to construct an alibi by going out dancing in discos mere hours after the murder (in giant contradiction with his claims to have been feeling frightened and panicked), and his flight to Germany)

Bloody Italians. Can't think straight. No wonder Knox and Sollecito were found guilty.

 

[Vixen]

RS's kitchen knife was compatible with the largest wound... but only compatible as would have been almost any non-serrated knife. MY kitchen knife would have been compatible. As would likely Mignini's, Comodi's, Profazio's, Sophie's, etc.

Yet another non sequitur.

 

[Vixen]

The one act that revealed just how unprepared these clowns were for investigating a murder like this is Finzi's taking that single knife from a drawer full of knives because of his 'gut instinct'. Unbelievable.

The claim by the police that they could smell bleach in RS's apartment also bothers me. Were they ever put to the test by identifying the odor of bleach from lysoform? Not that I'm aware of.

Sherlock Holmes bites again.

 

[Vixen]

I've always felt the random selection of a knife and the 'observation' that the place smelled of bleach were clear indicators of a rehearsal. I believe they went there with the intent of coming back with the murder knife, regardless of whether it was really THE murder knife, and the bleach comment was just to cement the deal.

Similarly, Capezzali's comment about hearing two people running in different directions was another clear example of a rehearsal. There was absolutely no way that woman, who had hearing issues, could discern multiple people running in two different directions through that window. She was coached.

As was Curatolo and Quintavalle. There is zero credibility in any of their accounts. Capezzali might have been credible if she stopped at just hearing a scream.

Everybody's a liar except your two little darlings.

 

[Vixen]

I think the police really did smell something: lysoform. I don't think that was rehearsed or coached. But their failure to distinguish it from lysoform when they found both bleach and lysoform was pure ineptitude.

Capezzali is a different matter. I think Fois suggested things to her just as he did Curatolo and Quintavalle in an effort to get a story. They may well have come to believe their stories just as Amanda came to think she really did have amnesia as was suggested to her by Donnino.

Shouldn't that be moved to the conspiracies thread?

All these ******* Italians conspiring with each other against Miss American Pie.

 

[bagels]

Shouldn't that be moved to the conspiracies thread?

All these ******* Italians conspiring with each other against Miss American Pie.

You're the one that believes in a massive (inter)national conspiracy. We just think some local bumbling cops and their idiot prosecutor made a boo boo.

 

[Vixen]

Nah! There are judicial facts and there are actual facts in this case. Of course Meredith is actually dead, but how can Meredith be "legally dead" if no-one was ever "legally" identified as the killer. IMO M/B failed to determine who the actual killer was, which in turn fails to give us any real closure on the case.

Hoots

Knox and Sollecito were convicted on the merits. Police are not looking for anybody else.

Not even Knox and Solly are looking for anybody else after the appearance of their disastrous star witnesses, a child kidnapper, Alessi, and killer and a sociopathic mafiosi Lucy (formerly Luciano) 'five versions' Aviello, claiming hey knew who the 'other attackers' were.

Even Knox and Raff believed there were 'other attackers' and sought to bribe these two crooks into providing a false account.

 

[Vixen]

Well, we all know that there were multiple killers so I'm sure the evidence they must have left behind will be discovered any day now. We'll hear about it around the same time that Mignini posts RS's and AG's apology and the M/B verdict is challenged as being illegal in the Italian courts.

We all know who did it.

 

[Vixen]

Oh, ye of little faith. Any day now. Any day.

You are not usually funny but that made me laugh.

 

[Stacyhs]

Her standard operating procedure is avoidance and distraction.

ETA: Speaking of which, has Vixen found that David Marriot-Curt Knox-$2 million PR campaign evidence yet? For something 'readily available' it's sure taking her a long time.

Sorry I haven't been doing your research for you, as per usual. However, life got in the way and I had to attend a burial, arrange a party and have said party, together with sorting out various effects, taking loads of stuff to the landfill, assembling flat pack furniture, etc.

Some might call this 'avoidance'.

Might I remind you of this? I suggest you take your own advice under consideration.

If you want to make an allegation, the onus is on you to prove it, or at least show probable cause.

(vixen, 23/01/2019 post #2443)

 

[TruthCalls]

Sorry I haven't been doing your research for you, as per usual. However, life got in the way and I had to attend a burial, arrange a party and have said party, together with sorting out various effects, taking loads of stuff to the landfill, assembling flat pack furniture, etc.

Some might call this 'avoidance'.

You've been reminded countless times, when you make the claim it's up to you to prove it. Since we know this is a bogus claim, why would any of us waste time looking for it. You've been making the claim for a very long time yet you've never offered a shred of evidence to prove the claim, so yes, this IS avoidance.

 

[Stacyhs]

Yes, Amanda Knox is one such person. She knows she's lying but sees nothing immoral in it.

Projection is a funny thing, innit?

It was Raff who was terrified of it being tested.

Is that why the defense requested it be tested?

Raff had every reason to be terrified of Stefanoni's work.

 

[TruthCalls]

It was Raff who was terrified of it being tested.

The issue wasn't how Raffaele felt about the stain. It was "why a suspected semen stain between the legs of the victim was not seen as a potential primary piece of evidence in a rape/ murder".

Claiming Raffaele was terrified of it being tested is what we call a diversion, which for you is a form of avoidance. Why not try to address the point being made and explain why the stain was not collected and tested?

 

[TruthCalls]

Only a ******* moron would claim Amanda Knox was found guilty in a fair trial 'because of her body language'.

And only a ******* moron would claim Amanda Knox was acquitted in a fair trial 'because of the mafia/masons/US Government/PR Supertanker'

 

[Stacyhs]

Just for giggles, I had a look at TJMK's Front Page. The current offering is an attack on Malcolm Gladwell's book Talking to Strangers by The Machine who is attempting to expose Gladwell's 'lies'. First up: mixed blood. Yep, you read that right. MIXED BLOOD with Amanda having "copious blood loss". Hoo boy. Does TM bother to mention that not a single court called it 'mixed blood' because it's forensically impossible to determine her blood from her DNA? Nah. As evidence, he trots out Garofano, the lone 'go to' expert on this for the PGP with whom not a single forensic expert agrees. You would assume that the fact that no other expert agrees with Garofano might be a clue for TM and other PGP. But no.


Does TM bother to include the fact that no trace of blood was found in Filomena's room as confirmed by negative TMB test? Nah.
I could go on but you get the idea. TM is just trotting out more disproved/unproved nonsense. I have to wonder why TM feels the need to spend so much time just repeating the same nonsense to his tiny, tiny audience? No one is looking to decide on AK's and RS's guilt or innocence anymore. People have already made up their minds or just don't care. So why all the time and effort? The miniscule TJMK diehards are just not relevant anymore but they don't quite seem to kemo sabe that.

You are either ignorant of the case or - more likely - know very well the pair did it together with Guede but enjoy seeing how far you can knowingly spin out your PR.

Nice try, Vix. Did The Machine bother to mention that no court referred to it as "mixed blood"? Did he mention the negative TMB results? The simple and truthful answer is "no".

Please stop embarrassing yourself with the continual lie that we 'know' the pair are guilty but support them anyway. It does not reflect well on your logical reasoning capabilities.

 

[Stacyhs]

Only a ******* moron would claim Amanda Knox was found guilty in a fair trial 'because of her body language'.

Only a ******* moron would derive that from what he said.

By the way, that 'fair trial' was totally demolished by the Supreme Court which found it should never have convicted on the evidence presented.