Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed?

[theprestige]

I agree (and I think the per capita argument is one that the more mainstream environmental groups struggle to address). But it is disingenuous to say that we should do nothing just because China emits more than us. If anything, the per capita disparity shows that the U.S. has a great deal of room for improvement.



If we want to start with the low-hanging fruit, we need only look in the mirror.

Thunberg is lecturing us not because we're the biggest problem, but because we're willing to let her talk. That's pretty disingenuous.

If she were truly a "brave campaigner", she'd be taking her campaign to the schoolchildren of mainland China.

And the US is doing a lot already. The question is, how much more should the US be doing, if the reality is that we are all depending on China?

If China isn't going to take the immediate and drastic steps it needs to take to avert the global crisis, then maybe the US would be better off preparing to adapt to it, rather than pretending that a more equitable per capita emissions goal will avert it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Thunberg is lecturing us not because we're the biggest problem, but because we're willing to let her talk. That's pretty disingenuous.

If she were truly a "brave campaigner", she'd be taking her campaign to the schoolchildren of mainland China.

And the US is doing a lot already. The question is, how much more should the US be doing, if the reality is that we are all depending on China?

If China isn't going to take the immediate and drastic steps it needs to take to avert the global crisis, then maybe the US would be better off preparing to adapt to it, rather than pretending that a more equitable per capita emissions goal will avert it.

You missed her answer to this, in the Netherlands it's the US they see as the problem.

Also, I believe China was represented at the UN when she spoke to them.

And what makes you think teenagers in China aren't hearing her message?


The extent people are going to to attack the messenger is quite telling.

 

[3point14]

You missed her answer to this, in the Netherlands it's the US they see as the problem.

Also, I believe China was represented at the UN when she spoke to them.

And what makes you think teenagers in China aren't hearing her message?


The extent people are going to to attack the messenger is quite telling.

It's quite breathtaking. There's always some problem with the messenger. They are normally described either as having an ulterior motive or a financial interest. Every Single Time. The message is then lost and we go on.

That the messenger this time is a teenaged girl massive highlight that tactic.

Around here, it's doubly brilliant because we're supposed to be aware that ad hominem attacks are not valid arguments, and yet...

 

[GlennB]

If she were truly a "brave campaigner", she'd be taking her campaign to the schoolchildren of mainland China.

Except that she cannot, as China wouldn't allow it. She took it to the U.N. in this case.

A Godwin moment :

If Churchill was so damn clever, why didn't he give his inspirational war speeches in Berlin?

Your point up there is utterly ridiculous, on a number of levels.

 

[crescent]

You missed her answer to this, in the Netherlands it's the US they see as the problem.

Also, I believe China was represented at the UN when she spoke to them.

And what makes you think teenagers in China aren't hearing her message?


The extent people are going to to attack the messenger is quite telling.

The Nederlands and Sweden should not do anything because the U.S. is the problem. The U.S. should not do anything, because China is the problem. China probably thinks it should not do anything because the per-capita use in the U.S. and Europe is so much higher, so why should they (China) get blamed when the West is so much more wasteful?

Also, she should totally stop lecturing the U.N., because China is the real problem and some of the IS Forum members don't quite seem to have gotten the message that speaking to the U.N. is speaking to all of the member nations - including China.

Nobody should ever do anything because it is always somebody else's fault, and nobody should ever do anything because nobody can do everything. Just shut up, sit down, and embrace the suck. Message received.


(ETA: Post not directed at Ginger, more just emphasizing Ginger's criticism of other member's posts)

 

[Skeptical Greg]

And what makes you think teenagers in China aren't hearing her message?

I'll pay attention when Chinese teenagers stage a strike...

 

[crescent]

I'll pay attention when Chinese teenagers stage a strike...

And compared to America, Europe, Japan and such, Chinese teenagers totally have the same legal and social ability to strike?

No, they don't, not even close. Their (Chinese) teenagers are denied the ability to stage such strikes. Ours (America, Europe) are not.

 

[theprestige]

Except that she cannot, as China wouldn't allow it. She took it to the U.N. in this case.

Exactly. She's looking for her car keys under the streetlamp, because that's where the light is. And she's being praised for her commitment to finding her car keys. Never mind that her keys are actually across the street, behind a fence, under some bushes, guarded by an angry dog, and she knows this.

A Godwin moment :

If Churchill was so damn clever, why didn't he give his inspirational war speeches in Berlin?

Your point up there is utterly ridiculous, on a number of levels.

The Allies actually put a lot of effort into transmitting propaganda into Nazi Germany, directly flouting their national sovereignty and inviting the harshest possible sanctions. Of course, the Allies and the Axis were already at war, so there wasn't much additional risk there.

Is that what you're recommending we do with China? Start aggressively pushing Thunberg's message past their censors in total disregard for their sovereignty? Because that might precipitate a crisis much more disastrous than mere climate change.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

And compared to America, Europe, Japan and such, Chinese teenagers totally have the same legal and social ability to strike?

No, they don't, not even close. Their (Chinese) teenagers are denied the ability to stage such strikes. Ours (America, Europe) are not.

Actually, they don't have have the un-fettered right to strike in the USA..

Their legal guardians are subject to legal sanctions...

 

[BStrong]

Whether this is viewed as germane or not, my experience with an autistic individual related to the death of my closest friend last year -

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12796609&postcount=43

They sometimes do - A thread I started last year:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=330756

I didn't get into this in that thread, but a friend of ours has a son with autism. He and his family believe that he has healing powers - he lays his hands on a suffering individual and prays and they will be cured.

How or why this belief came about is unknown to me. They aren't asking for money but from my first hand observation they believe in the "healing" abilities of their son.

Word is that he was devastated by Al's death.

I have nothing but sympathy for this young woman

 

[crescent]

Is that what you're recommending we do with China? Start aggressively pushing Thunberg's message past their censors in total disregard for their sovereignty? Because that might precipitate a crisis much more disastrous than mere climate change.

What do YOU recommend she does with China?

Your message seems to be that she should not do anything in America or Europe because China is the problem. Then you seem to admit that she would not be allowed to address China.

 

[theprestige]

And compared to America, Europe, Japan and such, Chinese teenagers totally have the same legal and social ability to strike?

No, they don't, not even close. Their (Chinese) teenagers are denied the ability to stage such strikes. Ours (America, Europe) are not.

Not being in a position to do what needs to be done doesn't make not doing it praiseworthy or brave.

Anyway, what's your solution? The truth of the matter seems to be that we need China to take drastic action, soon, or it doesn't much matter what the rest of us do. This message needs to be accepted not by Chinese schoolchildren, but by Chinese policymakers. According to Thunberg(?), a good strategy for convincing recalcitrant policymakers is to convince their schoolchildren. This is probably worth trying. We know that Chinese policymakers have already gotten the message, so it's not like Thunberg needs them to send a rep to the UN to hear her say it again.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

.... Then you seem to admit that she would not be allowed to address China.

Is that in doubt?

 

[theprestige]

What do YOU recommend she does with China?

Whatever she thinks she can accomplish there, and is willing to attempt.

Your message seems to be that she should not do anything in America or Europe because China is the problem. Then you seem to admit that she would not be allowed to address China.

My message is that she should not do anything in America or Europe that's a waste of time, when there's a crisis looming: Preaching to the choir, for example. Or lecturing us for not doing more to solve a problem that we're all actually dependent on China to solve.

Things she should probably do in Europe, if she's actually serious about this issue: Appeal to our schoolchildren to hold China's feet to the fire. Lecture our policymakers for not doing more to hold China's feet to the fire. Address the UN assembly, about the pressing need to hold China's feet to the fire. Make public appeals to Chinese officials to take the necessary steps without delay. Petition the Chinese government to allow her to appeal directly to Chinese schoolchildren.

Europe and America are already picking the low-hanging fruit. She's running around the orchard yelling about how there's not enough fruit in the baskets and lecturing us about picking more low-hanging fruit. But the low-hanging fruit is already being picked. To actually fill the baskets, someone needs to get up in the treetops where the majority of the fruit is actually located. And the guy with that job is taking a long lunch and may not even come back to work today.

And you're excusing her yelling at us because she's not actually the boss of that other guy, and he's not actually paying attention to her anyway, so if she's gonna yell at anyone, it might as well be the person in front of her, even if they're already doing their job and don't deserve to be yelled at.

 

[crescent]

Is that in doubt?

No, I don't think it is. It's a criticism of The Prestige's suggestion that she should not address the U.S. because she has not addressed China. That's akin to saying she should not do what is possible but only a little helpful because she has not done what is impossible but which would have been very helpful if it were possible (which it is not).

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I really dont think that is theprestige's argument.. ( See " The low hanging fruit argument...)

 

[theprestige]

No, I don't think it is. It's a criticism of The Prestige's suggestion that she should not address the U.S. because she has not addressed China.

My argument is that China needs addressing. And that addressing the US or Europe does not meet that need. And that her message to the US and Europe is not needed. We're already reducing emissions, increasing efficiency, etc. We're going to continue to do that. Telling our children to tell us to do more of that may be a little helpful, but aren't we talking about a looming crisis? RogerRamjets seems to be saying that we need to ban all emitting motor vehicles, worldwide, within ten years. He seems to be saying we need to ban all emitting industry, worldwide, within ten years. 3point15 seems to be saying it's too late to do much of anything.

A lot of us seem to be saying that doing the little things is good, and doing more of the little things is better, but we still need China to do some really big things really soon, to mitigate or avert a really big disaster.

And a lot of us seem to be praising Thunberg for "bravely" telling us to do more of what we're already doing, as if that somehow is going to solve the real problem she claims is causing her so much concern.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

" Brave " Would be sneaking into China and holding a rally at Tiananmen Square ..

 

[theprestige]

" Brave " Would be sneaking into China and holding a rally at Tiananmen Square ..

One commonly-recognized form of bravery is choosing to risk your life, or even intentionally sacrificing it, for the good of others.

I would never recommend that Thunberg try to stage a protest in Tiananmen Square unless I were convinced that the risk to her from doing that were commensurate with the expected benefit.. And even then, I'd strongly urge that not do that as a child, but rather let an adult activist take that drastic action.

I would also, considering how much we depend on China to avert this crisis, never suggest that Thunberg were doing anything even remotely as useful or praiseworthy as an effective rally in China, to influence a Chinese audience, unless she actually did something remotely that useful.

 

[a_unique_person]

" Brave " Would be sneaking into China and holding a rally at Tiananmen Square ..

Brave is opening yourself up to public pillory Greta it's now exposed to. Many sensible people who would otherwise make great public figures can't bear the thought of doing so.