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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

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Not to mention that of these seven, only the last two on the list were sexual partners of Knox dating from her time in Europe in the Summer and Autumn (fall) of 2007. The other five dated from her life in Seattle, at which point she would have been living at home or in student accommodation for UW (and heck, at the end of my second year at university, I don't think I knew all that many people who HADN'T had at least five sexual partners in their life to date....).

But of course that doesn't stop many/most pro-guilt commentators from grafting on the associated lie (in a clear bid to smear Knox's character) that she had sex with seven different men just in the several weeks she'd been in Italy...........

Hell, that wasn't unusual even in my uni days and that was decades ago!
The word "dated" for the 3 one night stands isn't even appropriate. But what always made me angry was that, if Knox had been a man, no one would have batted an eye. Pure double standard slut shaming...and largely from other women.
 
Hell, that wasn't unusual even in my uni days and that was decades ago!
The word "dated" for the 3 one night stands isn't even appropriate. But what always made me angry was that, if Knox had been a man, no one would have batted an eye. Pure double standard slut shaming...and largely from other women.


Oh no, I was using "dating" and "dated" purely to refer to periods of time (eg "dating from her time in Europe" meaning "which took place during her time in Europe").

I wasn't using any versions of the verb "to date" to refer to the type of relationship Knox was involved in.

And yes, I totally agree on the double standards point. Plus, if I remember correctly, Nadeau had a strangely prurient - yet at the same time rather descriptive - attitude to the way foreign students in Perugia were behaving. I have a suspicion that Nadeau's motivation may have been to paint Knox in that same light by association, while making it clear that she disapproved of this sort of behaviour. It also cannot be discounted that juicy stories of student debauchery in Perugia were precisely what large swathes of the media were eager to print, since they chimed with the nasty lies and misrepresentations about Knox's alleged behaviour that they were being spoonfed by Mignini and the authorities, plus the old adage of "sex sells" is an adage for a reason: it's true.

The media would have loved the idea of being able to tittilate their consumers, especially if that tittilation was masquerading as serious reportage on the background to a high-profile murder and its investigation. And Nadeau - a mere stringer who was only paid if her copy was accepted and published by a media outlet - would have known this very well.......
 
I agree, LJ.

I saw Malcolm Gladwell (Talking to Strangers) on The View today. It was interesting to hear him use Amanda as an example of how people misunderstand each other largely based on what we think and/or expect due to our culture. The example he gave was how the Italians judged Amanda how on they thought an innocent young woman would act and Amanda didn't. So, in their minds, it indicated guilt.
 
Good point. A cat wouldn't jump up against a wall like that; they jump to land on something.



I cannot find where in the downstairs apt. this switch was located. The video does not show it nor does a google search identify its location. It's entirely plausible that the cat was on top of a piece of furniture, a dresser, or a bed nearby, shook its head, and the blood flew straight or nearly straight across. The circular appearance of those drops is indicative of coming from a near 45 degree angle as explained in the link I posted above.

Stacyhs, let's not forget the several potted trees that were growing near the light switch.
 
Knox did not claim to have heard any noises coming from the apartment below. What she actually said was:



No mention of downstairs.

Odd how Guede never mentioned these noises as his reason for running off in his Skype call to Benedetti. He only first mentions them 3 weeks later in his deposition to the German police. He made up that crap just like the rest of his story is a pile.

Kokomani again? Nothing he says is reliable. He was all over the place in his testimony and most of it was absurd (olive throwing, Guede offering him 250 euros to borrow his car the next day, seeing AK and RS...with a non-existent uncle... together before she even arrived in Perugia). You really think he could hear a thud coming from inside the downstairs apartment through the thick stone walls and closed windows? Really?




Nope. Only one person claimed to hear noises coming from the downstairs apartment, not three.



You just contradicted yourself. First you say liars give "a lot of inconsequential stuff to make their fabrications as plausible as possible" then immediately declare (with no evidence) that "they rarely include details such as environmental background noise such as birds singing, a man drilling in the road or a car backfiring." Sounds like pretty "inconsequential stuff" to me.

Koko, Knox, and Guede didn't mention a thud or noises coming from downstairs; only Guede did.



I agree that Rudy used it as an excuse. He had to come up with a reason why he ran off leaving Meredith to die without getting help. Knox never said she heard a noise from downstairs; see her quote above. How on earth do you find them to be "remarkably consistent when one said he heard noises like furniture being moved around downstairs, Amanda mentioned a thud she imagined which, from the sentence construction, was connected to what was happening in Meredith's bedroom, not downstairs, and Koko talked about a woman screaming in a foreign language and various noises. Funny how the people standing right outside with the broken down car testified they heard no such noises, innit? And that was between 10:45 and 11:25 PM, not 10:30.



Trouble with your 'math' is that it isn't based on reality; it's based on your made up nonsense and factual errors. Go figure.

Just think, had you been born in Ancient Greece, you could have earned good money as a Sophist. I guess these were the predecessors of PR as we know it today. I said, Knox reported a thud. I did not say she stated from which direction it came from. So you spent a huge amount of bandwidth ranting claiming 'Knox never said she heard a noise downstairs'.

But then you knew what you were doing, didn't you?
 
Why would they be standing on a chair, leaning over the tub to look thru a small window when there was a full size window in the next room with basically the same view?

And btw, since I clean my heat/exhaust unit directly over the tub by standing on the top rim of the tub, I can tell you this is easy to do, and it would be made easier by having a window ledge to hold on to.

Why has that chair been dragged into such a narrow bathroom at all?
 
Sorry, it looks as though I've totally confused you again. When I mentioned the "shutters" in post 2435, I was referring to the shutters in Ricardo's room which looks to be entirely secure even though frame 18:31:58 shows the actual window, there is no way the cat could have got in that I can see. So my basic argument is that the cat couldn't have in via the door either since it was locked and the cops had to kick it open. As far as I can see the blood on the floor is a certainty. So-

Q. How did it get there?
A. Easy, the blood was on the floor before the boys locked up and went away, they just didn't notice.
Q. How did it go unnoticed, when the blood spots would have been clearly visible when the boys pished on the floor, resulting in dried urine stains showing traces of blood.
A. TBA



That would have to be open to consensus dare I say.

Just to add that I am aware that the broken glass fragments in Ricardo's room would more likely to have come from Zugarini booting in the glass window and trailing it about the place rather than anything to do with Rudy.

Hoots

What?! :eek:
 
I like your theory, especially the "TBA" part.

Let's see how it matches some of the other evidence.

For example, the blue pillowcase on the floor with blood traces on it.

One of the tenants said in a police interview that he had left that pillowcase hanging on a line (to dry after washing).

Could a cat with a bleeding ear have knocked it down and dripped blood or rubbed its ear on it? Could there be some other more credible explanation?

What about the clothing scattered about? Was that due to a playful cat messing around? Or were the tenants a bit messy?

How did the cat get blood on the light switch on the wall? Does your theory agree with Giobbi's testimony that it jumped against the wall? (Note that Stefanoni was careful not to record that those blood traces were from cat.)


It was a cat that thought it was a dog.
 
No, you didn't confuse me at all. My post had nothing to do with the shutters. I was commenting on where one would need to stand in front of the window to look up toward the car park...which would not be on a chair.

I agree that the blood was most likely already there as the testimony did say the cat had been bleeding quite a bit (including from shaking its head) a few days before the murder. Not only is it completely plausible that these young men were not diligent housekeepers as evidenced by the urine, but much of the smaller drops of blood could have simply gone unseen. Those drops by the light switch are very small.

I don't consider Giobbi an impeccable witness, but he did say he saw one of the windows was open. The boys confirmed they often left a window open for the cat to come in. I believe they said Meredith was also asked to not only to water the weed downstairs but to feed the cats. This begs the question as to where she fed them. Did she leave food outside or did she feed them inside? If inside, I highly doubt the boys locked them in for several days so they must have had a way to go in and out.

I'm confused. I thought all these guys were supposed to be 'nice middle class kids', unlike Rudy. At least he used the loo, even if he did fall asleep on it.
 
1. Absolutely plausible. Anyone whoever had a cat knows they can, and do, jump on things knocking them down.

2. Four early 20-something boys living in an apartment being sloppy and leaving clothes on the floor? Unheard of!

3. Blood spatter from shaking its head as Bonassi or Marzan claimed the cat did. The cat jumping against it would have left smeared blood as was seen on the upstairs bathroom light switch.

ETA: The only reason Guede would have gone downstairs was, as suggested, to change his bloody clothes. Yet, no clothing was reported missing by any of the boys. To my mind, that fact discounts Guede having gone downstairs. As for Vixen's earlier suggestion that it was AK who went downstairs, what possible reason could she have to do so? Also remember, according to Vixen, Knox was "bleeding profusely"; if any of the blood downstairs had belonged to her, we can be certain that the prosecution would have said so.

Oh dear. You have been told Bonassi said his room was spotless before he left for the weekend. He was puzzled when he saw the police photos (which are taken before anyone touches the crime scene) showing his bed in disarray.

Rudy might have been down there that night but it would have been Amanda who let him in as she was the only one left who had the key or knew where it was kept.
 
If Amanda was given a genuine HIV test, can Vixen explain the irregularities in the article below

https://nigelscott.co.uk/2016/05/25/amanda-knox-and-the-hiv-test-fraud/

That's fair enough but the ECHR did not uphold Knox' complaint in this.

The onus was on her to provide the evidence but she did not. Had she reported it at the time or within a reasonable time frame, she would have had evidence she made a complaint but she never did.

She was a prisoner remanded in custody and AIUI an HIV test was routinely given to all prisoners as part of the prison healthcare service and support.
 
As I said earlier, the ECHR said nothing about her HIV test. It's nonsense to claim Knox was trying to ruin the doctor's reputation. THIS is what she wrote about the incident in WTBH pg. 213:



Vixen sees this as trying to ruin the doctor's reputation. Sigh...she's not given to gross exaggeration at all. :rolleyes:

Oh please. WTBH heard was written by Linda Kulman (_sp?) imagining what she would have felt as a normal person had it been her in prison 'for a crime I didn't commit and falsely told I had HIV as victimisation which the evil doctor then leaked to the press'.

It bears little relation to the truth wrt Knox.
 
As has been pointed out many times before, if Knox's recollection of this exchange is accurate (and of course there are plenty of reasons why it possibly might not be accurate), then the prison doctor absolutely would not have been following WHO protocol in respect of these 2-part assays which were used in 2007.

The very reason why 2-part tests were used at that time (before accurate and cost-effective 1-part assays were widely available) was this: the first of those tests (the ELISA test) was used to test for a true negative - i.e. if the ELISA test came back negative, then HIV was virtually guaranteed not to be present (= an extremely low false-negative ratio). The patient could at that point be reassured that they were not an HIV carrier, and no further testing would be required.

BUT

If the ELISA test came back positive, this in and of itself was extremely far from indicating that the patient was carrying HIV. In fact, if the patient did not identify in a high-risk group (e.g. promiscuous gay men or intravenous drug users who shared needles), an ELISA positive was still significantly more likely to end up with a negative diagnosis for HIV than a positive diagnosis.

And that's where the second test came in: the Western Blot test. This test took much longer to produce results than the ELISA test, and cost a lot more money. It also had a high false-negative ratio for HIV. But since false negatives had already effectively been ruled out by a positive ELISA test, if the subsequent Western Blot test came back negative, it was virtually certain to be a true negative, and therefore a positive ELISA followed by a negative WB would act as a confirmatory negative for HIV.

And conversely, the WB assay had a very low false-positive ratio (again, the exact opposite of ELISA). Therefore a positive ELISA followed by a positive WB served as a confirmatory positive for HIV.


What does all of that mean in respect of someone like Knox? Well, the most important part is the bolded sentence above. Which is precisely why WTO guidelines around these 2-part HIV assays clearly stated that if the patient's first ELISA test comes back positive, the patient (in all cases, but especially in the case of patients who were not identifying in any high-risk groups) should receive that information in an extremely carefully-framed manner. The standard practice would be for the physician to say something like: "We are going to need to carry out a second, confirmatory test on your sample; the first test indicated that there's at least a possibility that you might carry HIV, but it's nothing more than that at this stage and it's only by carrying out the second test that we will know properly." And for people identifying in low-risk groups it would have been appropriate to add: "For someone with your lifestyle, even a positive first test means it's still actually a good deal more likely that you do not carry HIV than that you do carry it."

It doesn't take a genius to figure out why it would have been ethically proper to be extremely careful about the way in which a positive ELISA test was revealed to a patient - particularly to one with a low-risk lifestyle......

Doctors are trained to be straightforward and factual, albeit kindly, and I see zero evidence this didn't happen. The doctor really has no control over how a patient reacts to 'bad news' which is why they are now trained to not attempt to conceal 'bad news' especially now patients are acknowledged to have the right to know what the doctor knows.
 
Hell, that wasn't unusual even in my uni days and that was decades ago!
The word "dated" for the 3 one night stands isn't even appropriate. But what always made me angry was that, if Knox had been a man, no one would have batted an eye. Pure double standard slut shaming...and largely from other women.

Stop projecting. Knox listed her sex partners of her own volition in her own private time in her own private diary. It is untrue anybody forced her to.
 
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
Knox did not claim to have heard any noises coming from the apartment below. What she actually said was:

I don't remember if Meredith screamed and if I also heard thuds because I was upset, but I imagined what could have happened

No mention of downstairs.


Just think, had you been born in Ancient Greece, you could have earned good money as a Sophist. I guess these were the predecessors of PR as we know it today. I said, Knox reported a thud. I did not say she stated from which direction it came from. So you spent a huge amount of bandwidth ranting claiming 'Knox never said she heard a noise downstairs'.

But then you knew what you were doing, didn't you?

Oh, Vix, Vix, Vix, You would be even more amusing if you just weren't quite so obvious. You attempted to connect Guede's claim of hearing noises coming from the downstairs apartment which caused him to flee to Knox's statement that she imagined she might have heard a thud coming from Meredith's room when she was being murdered.
You also tried to connect these to Kokomani's bizarre and discredited 'olive throwing' story that no one, except apparently you, believes. This was nothing more than you trying to give Guede's lie more credibility. You wasted a great amount of time playing such a silly and obvious game.

But then we know that, don't we?
 
Stop projecting. Knox listed her sex partners of her own volition in her own private time in her own private diary. It is untrue anybody forced her to.

This the same "private diary" that was leaked to the press? I suppose she leaked this of her "own volition" as well? Or is that just another Free Rudy theory?
 
Why has that chair been dragged into such a narrow bathroom at all?

Watching the video it appears that there are many electrical outlets near the ceiling (why would they design it that way I have no idea) with many electrical cords plugged in. Possibly they needed it to plug things in like a hair dryer, etc.

ETA..watched it again and I'm not seeing any outlets near the sink where you would normally find them. It's not a complete view of the wall there, but nothing I can see in the video.
 
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I'm confused. I thought all these guys were supposed to be 'nice middle class kids', unlike Rudy. At least he used the loo, even if he did fall asleep on it.

I have no idea what kind of guys they were, much less if they were 'nice middle class kids'. What I do know is that Silenzi did not treat Meredith with very much respect when he bragged to his friends about intimate details of his sex life with her.

However, I don't think pissing on someone's floor out of spite is a very nice thing to do, either:

A. Riccardo is a strange character and I don't get on with him well. None of us got on with him well because he is a big egoist and out of spite, we urinated from the window into his room when he was not there.
(Stefano Bonassi police statement, Nov. 3, 2007)
 
1. Absolutely plausible. Anyone whoever had a cat knows they can, and do, jump on things knocking them down.

2. Four early 20-something boys living in an apartment being sloppy and leaving clothes on the floor? Unheard of!

3. Blood spatter from shaking its head as Bonassi or Marzan claimed the cat did. The cat jumping against it would have left smeared blood as was seen on the upstairs bathroom light switch.

ETA: The only reason Guede would have gone downstairs was, as suggested, to change his bloody clothes. Yet, no clothing was reported missing by any of the boys. To my mind, that fact discounts Guede having gone downstairs. As for Vixen's earlier suggestion that it was AK who went downstairs, what possible reason could she have to do so? Also remember, according to Vixen, Knox was "bleeding profusely"; if any of the blood downstairs had belonged to her, we can be certain that the prosecution would have said so.

Oh dear. You have been told Bonassi said his room was spotless before he left for the weekend. He was puzzled when he saw the police photos (which are taken before anyone touches the crime scene) showing his bed in disarray.

I know what Bonassi said. The only thing messy about his room are a few clothes on the bed. A guy's idea of a room being in "perfect order" is not necessarily what someone else considers "perfect order". Once again, did Bonassi or anyone report any clothing missing? Hint: NO.

Rudy might have been down there that night but it would have been Amanda who let him in as she was the only one left who had the key or knew where it was kept.

There is no evidence that Guede or Amanda or anyone else was downstairs. What would be the motive for Knox going downstairs? Let's see what your fertile imagination can come up with.
 
I have no idea what kind of guys they were, much less if they were 'nice middle class kids'. What I do know is that Silenzi did not treat Meredith with very much respect when he bragged to his friends about intimate details of his sex life with her.

However, I don't think pissing on someone's floor out of spite is a very nice thing to do, either:


(Stefano Bonassi police statement, Nov. 3, 2007)



I constantly find it *interesting* how some (most? all?) pro-guilt commentators seem to have some sort of need to paint the victim and anyone on her "side" as paragons of virtue, regardless of evidence to the contrary

(and of course the same need to paint Knox and Sollecito and anyone on their "side" as exactly the opposite....)
 
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