Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

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ceptimus said:
It's nothing to do with bullying. It's about negotiating. When you go to buy a car, the car dealer is much richer than you, and they hold all the cars! But you make them your offer, and if they don't accept it you walk away. Miraculously, sometimes as you turn to walk out, they change their minds and accept your offer. This is negotiation 101.

You'll never get a good deal buying a car by telling the salesman that you're going to buy it whatever happens, and then asking for the best deal he can offer.
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If the salesman knows you have to walk home 20 miles then it makes no difference what ******** you try to tell him of course. If you offer him less than he is able to accept then you can waste your time as much as you like and the end of the day you will be the one with the sore feet.
 
ceptimus said:
It's nothing to do with bullying. It's about negotiating. When you go to buy a car, the car dealer is much richer than you, and they hold all the cars! But you make them your offer, and if they don't accept it you walk away. Miraculously, sometimes as you turn to walk out, they change their minds and accept your offer. This is negotiation 101
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Of course if your offer is bad for the dealer they won't accept it and there will be no miracles, you walk away, literally. Given you life is so much easier with a car you can expect a miserable life until you get one. In this world of yours to get another car you have to walk miles to find other dealers many of whom only sell bikes that won't do all the things you need a car for. These other dealers also know just how desperate you are for a vehicle. They will screw you. You are an idiot for selling your old car before lining up a replacement.
 
angrysoba said:
John Bercow Speaker is pledging to stand down on October 31st (unless a general election is called today) as speaker and MP. And takes a few shots at the Tory government, and Bercow says he makes no apology for seeking to empower Parliament.
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And the favourite to replace him is Harriet Harman tee hee.
 
ceptimus said:
You have a very short memory. We've already been over this. As long as the opposition and DUP voted against the deal, it made no difference whatsoever how any Tory MPs voted.

You may remember that on the third time of asking, Boris and Jacob Rees Mogg both voted in favour of the deal - and still it failed to pass.
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My memory is fine thanks. BoJo et al voted against the customs union which failed by 3 votes, as well as against other deals that would have had us out. Boris voted against every leave option in the second round of indicative votes. Sackable offence once he took charge.
 
Here is my solution for solving the issue of Brexit.

1. Withdraw article 50
2. Negotiate a new deal with the EU
3. Hold a new referendum with remain, leave on deal, and leave on no deal options. Single transferable vote.
4. Enact that result the day after the referendum.

Having 'leave on no deal' on the referendum paper keeps the threat Ceptimus refers to and encourages the EU to deliver the best deal they can.
Vote leave said we should negotiate a deal before serving article 50 and leave immediately after. I am suggesting we now do what people supporting leave were told would happen.
If all those wanting to leave, as we are told, just want to leave no matter how, then one of those two options will win.
A fairly short timetable on negotiating the new deal can be applied. Given the no deal option on the referendum there is an incentive for both sides.
This could be done by the end of the year.
 
ceptimus said:
It's nothing to do with bullying. It's about negotiating. When you go to buy a car, the car dealer is much richer than you, and they hold all the cars! But you make them your offer, and if they don't accept it you walk away. Miraculously, sometimes as you turn to walk out, they change their minds and accept your offer. This is negotiation 101.

You'll never get a good deal buying a car by telling the salesman that you're going to buy it whatever happens, and then asking for the best deal he can offer.
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Yes, but if you've negotiated a deal where both sides are sorta ok, and at the last moment decide you are going back on the deal and want more for less or you're going to walk down the highway and most likely be killed then you are not going to get a better car.
 
Lothian said:
Here is my solution for solving the issue of Brexit.

1. Withdraw article 50
2. Negotiate a new deal with the EU
3. Hold a new referendum with remain, leave on deal, and leave on no deal options. Single transferable vote.
4. Enact that result the day after the referendum.

Having 'leave on no deal' on the referendum paper keeps the threat Ceptimus refers to and encourages the EU to deliver the best deal they can.
Vote leave said we should negotiate a deal before serving article 50 and leave immediately after. I am suggesting we now do what people supporting leave were told would happen.
If all those wanting to leave, as we are told, just want to leave no matter how, then one of those two options will win.
A fairly short timetable on negotiating the new deal can be applied. Given the no deal option on the referendum there is an incentive for both sides.
This could be done by the end of the year.
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Not sure 2 can happen if Art 50 is withdrawn.

Simpler to just have a Yes No referendum on 'should the UK leave the EU with no deal?' - if it's really what the people want then no deal will win so there should be no reason for Brexiteers to object. No need to include a deal either because a deal isn't a 'real Brexit' according to Farage.

If the vote is NO, then withdraw Art 50 and tell Brexiteers to shut up.
 
angrysoba said:
Massive standing ovation from the opposition benches. Mostly sitting golf claps (if that) from the Tory benches.
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It's amazing how things change Bercow was a Tory and it's been obvious from day one that the Tories expected that they would benefit from that.
 
ceptimus said:
It doesn't have to be beneficial. It was voted for by a majority in a referendum where the government had promised to implement whatever outcome was voted for.

When the government sends out a leaflet to every household stating, "This is your decision: the government will implement what you decide.", that should mean something - and there should be no going back on the promise.

So far we've seen over three years of obfuscation and delay from our politicians. They seem to think that if they can delay things for long enough, then they'll be able to sneak through the opposite of what was voted for, on the basis that "time has passed so the vote is no longer relevant." I don't think they should be allowed to get away with that.

But of course, they might get away with it - and if the next general election returns a remain-supporting parliament, then they surely will.
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Well you need to keep berating the Tory MPs who keep voting to not leave, but for some perverse reason those that have voted to stay several times have not had the whip removed whilst many of the 21 who had voted to leave 2 or 3 times were expelled. You really couldn't make it up.
 
ceptimus said:
You have a very short memory. We've already been over this. As long as the opposition and DUP voted against the deal, it made no difference whatsoever how any Tory MPs voted.

You may remember that on the third time of asking, Boris and Jacob Rees Mogg both voted in favour of the deal - and still it failed to pass.
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Not true. The Tories formed a government based on having a working majority in parliament. If all those folk voted to leave when they first had the option to leave we'd have left in March. But Tories such as Boris and Rees Mogg voted to not leave meaning we didn't leave.

You can keep denying it all you like but the reason we are still in the EU is down to the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson and their mate.
 
Darat said:
Not true. The Tories formed a government based on having a working majority in parliament. If all those folk voted to leave when they first had the option to leave we'd have left in March. But Tories such as Boris and Rees Mogg voted to not leave meaning we didn't leave.

You can keep denying it all you like but the reason we are still in the EU is down to the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson and their mate.
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How many times do you need to read this before it sinks in? The Conservatives, after 2017, only had a working majority with DUP support, and the DUP vowed they would never support Mrs May's deal.
 
Darat said:
It's amazing how things change Bercow was a Tory and it's been obvious from day one that the Tories expected that they would benefit from that.
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But as is all too frequent with those who become speaker he valued the institutions of parliament more than party affiliation.
 
ceptimus said:
It doesn't have to be beneficial. It was voted for by a majority in a referendum where the government had promised to implement whatever outcome was voted for.

When the government sends out a leaflet to every household stating, "This is your decision: the government will implement what you decide.", that should mean something - and there should be no going back on the promise.

So far we've seen over three years of obfuscation and delay from our politicians. They seem to think that if they can delay things for long enough, then they'll be able to sneak through the opposite of what was voted for, on the basis that "time has passed so the vote is no longer relevant." I don't think they should be allowed to get away with that.

But of course, they might get away with it - and if the next general election returns a remain-supporting parliament, then they surely will.
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OK, how many lives do you think is an acceptable price for something that the majority of the population don't want.

If you genuinely think the majority still want Brexit, then why don't you support a second referendum. If Leave wins, I'll be sad, but at least it would be a better-informed decision.
 
ceptimus said:
How many times do you need to read this before it sinks in? The Conservatives, after 2017, only had a working majority with DUP support, and the DUP vowed they would never support Mrs May's deal.
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Well if your claim had any facts in it maybe it would 'sink in'. The problem is that you willfully ignore the fact that enough labour MP's backed Brexit for May to win if the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg hadn't voted against her.
 
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ceptimus said:
How many times do you need to read this before it sinks in? The Conservatives, after 2017, only had a working majority with DUP support, and the DUP vowed they would never support Mrs May's deal.
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Are you unaware of the actual votes, they have been posted in this thread. If the likes of Johnson and RM had voted to leave we would have already left. (Hint not all the people who voted to leave were Tories.)
 
Darat said:
Are you unaware of the actual votes, they have been posted in this thread. If the likes of Johnson and RM had voted to leave we would have already left. (Hint not all the people who voted to leave were Tories.)
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You assume he equates rejecting Mays deal with voting against leaving. While it is certainly true that if it passed the UK would no be out of the EU, I have a feeling it is unlikely that he views the vote as a vote against leaving.
 
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