Mycroft
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Evidence?
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Oh please, it's pretty obviously out there. A substantial fraction of the Religious Right fundamentalists, for example, refuse to acknowledge anything bad about Israel. Denying that it exists make you look just as stupid as those who deny rampant anti-semitism.
Mycroft
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It may be because I don't cruise religious right sources for information, but I haven't witnessed this phenomenon. I have seen religious right sources express support for Israel in broad general terms and then simply not delve into the specific details of the conflict, but I wouldn’t agree that that’s on par with the left’s white-washing of Palestinian misdeeds.
Besides, the specific term was pro-Semitism, and I’d hoped to learn more of what he meant by that.
And some more of the usual dishonest horse manure typical of Mycroft whenever the subject of Israel ever comes up...
Who the hell is "white-washing Palestinian misdeeds"? "White-washing of Palestinian misdeeds" is as contemptible as "white-washing" Israeli misdeeds. And the fact that some on the left may have "white-washed Palestinian misdeeds" does not justify white-washing Israeli misdeeds.
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delphi_ote
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Israel thread? On the JREF boards?
Flame on!
Flame on!
Mycroft
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And some more of the usual dishonest horse manure typical of Mycroft whenever the subject of Israel ever comes up...
Who the hell is "white-washing Palestinian misdeeds"? "White-washing of Palestinian misdeeds" is as contemptible as "white-washing" Israeli misdeeds. And the fact that some on the left may have "white-washed Palestinian misdeeds" does not justify white-washing Israeli misdeeds.
Perhaps if you gave some examples?
Of what? Israeli misdeeds?
Do you want me to link to the Human Rights watch and amnesty international reports that I have already posted here, you know, the same reports that, if I recall correctly, were immediately dismissed by you and others? Or do I have to yet again mention all the sad story of attack and retaliation followed by more attacks and retaliation that has been the sad reality in that part of the world for over 50 years now?
Why should I waste more time pointing out the bleeding obvious to partisan hacks? I don't feel like giving you one more opportunity to demonstrate your great ability at spinning yarns and distorting facts.
Do you want me to link to the Human Rights watch and amnesty international reports that I have already posted here, you know, the same reports that, if I recall correctly, were immediately dismissed by you and others? Or do I have to yet again mention all the sad story of attack and retaliation followed by more attacks and retaliation that has been the sad reality in that part of the world for over 50 years now?
Why should I waste more time pointing out the bleeding obvious to partisan hacks? I don't feel like giving you one more opportunity to demonstrate your great ability at spinning yarns and distorting facts.
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Mycroft
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No, of their being white-washed. The pro-Israeli advocates on this board, afaik, don't deny anything factual.
Actually, my initial statement was about Melendwyr's claim that there was such a thing as rabid pro-Semitism, and that this this is "as corrupt and harmful" as rabid anti-Semitism.
webfusion
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support
Nobody, not one person, anywhere on this planet, would even venture to propose a claim that the State of Israel is perfect, and has done no wrong.
The 'right' (a non-uniform multi-dimensional group made up of so many diverse factions that it's impossible to count them all) certainly does criticize and evaluate the good, the bad and the ugly about Israel society.
One of the most obvious examples of this is the widely-accepted ArutzSheva network (www.israelnationalnews.com).
I am of the opinion that support for Israel comes from a wide spectrum, and this support is not blindly following Israel merely "because she does no wrong" -- it is support which recognizes Israel as a developing and maturing nation trying very very hard in circumstances that most people cannot even imagine in their worst nightmares.
Now, there was a comment made that "Israel misdeeds" are being whitewashed --- I would like to see just one misdeed that managed to evade scrutiny or attention in the mainstream media, or even on JREF! Can anyone point to something an Israeli has perpetrated that can somehow be classified as a "misdeed" and it only appeared in some blog, out of the limelight? (by definition, to be whitewashed, it must be 'covered up' and not achieve exposure to the general public).
Nobody, not one person, anywhere on this planet, would even venture to propose a claim that the State of Israel is perfect, and has done no wrong.
The 'right' (a non-uniform multi-dimensional group made up of so many diverse factions that it's impossible to count them all) certainly does criticize and evaluate the good, the bad and the ugly about Israel society.
One of the most obvious examples of this is the widely-accepted ArutzSheva network (www.israelnationalnews.com).
I am of the opinion that support for Israel comes from a wide spectrum, and this support is not blindly following Israel merely "because she does no wrong" -- it is support which recognizes Israel as a developing and maturing nation trying very very hard in circumstances that most people cannot even imagine in their worst nightmares.
Now, there was a comment made that "Israel misdeeds" are being whitewashed --- I would like to see just one misdeed that managed to evade scrutiny or attention in the mainstream media, or even on JREF! Can anyone point to something an Israeli has perpetrated that can somehow be classified as a "misdeed" and it only appeared in some blog, out of the limelight? (by definition, to be whitewashed, it must be 'covered up' and not achieve exposure to the general public).
zenith-nadir
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My mother is hard-core orthodox - far right - and she tears a strip out of Israel almost as much as she praises it... Proof, to me at least, that people on the right don't automatically "tow the party line" or whitewash.
Interestingly enough...
Look, if I had to live in the Mid-east (and if I wasn't muslim) I would probably prefer to live in Israel instead of somewhere else. Yes, Israel has comparatively more freedoms, riches and diversity. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so hard on them!
Considering the history of the Jewish people, considering the fact that Israel is supposed to be a democracy, the systematic human right abuses, the increasing dumb militarism of Israeli society and the increasing influence of ultra-right Jews, considering all these things, Israel and Israelis should know better!
Israeli security does not excuse an "everything goes, the means justify the ends" attitude.
Considering the history of the Jewish people, considering the fact that Israel is supposed to be a democracy, the systematic human right abuses, the increasing dumb militarism of Israeli society and the increasing influence of ultra-right Jews, considering all these things, Israel and Israelis should know better!
Israeli security does not excuse an "everything goes, the means justify the ends" attitude.
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Mycroft
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What I thought was interesting about ZN's list is that "Palestine", for being occupied and all, still came out ahead of 15 other Middle Eastern nations. Something to think about.
I'd bet that if you examined whatever evidence you have that brought you to the conclusion that Israel suffers 1)systematic human rights abuses, 2) increasing dumb militarism, and 3) increasing influence of ultra-right Jews, that much of your evidence wouldn't stand up to skeptical scrutiny. I notice that in these discussions you tend to put these things forward as though they should just be accepted without evidence.
I don't think you will be able to find anyone who disagrees with that.
zenith-nadir
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I'm burnt out on Middle east threads but all I gotta say is Israel has technically been at war since 1948. In those 57 years not a single day has gone by that a fedayeen from one of countless Arab terror groups or a like-minded arab government hasn't thought about, planned, dreamed or tried to do physical harm to Israels. Even today Iran's leaders say they wanna wipe out Israel - to the world! And guess what, they sponsor Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah who also wanna wipe out Israel.
Be an Israeli for a sec and wonder what it must be like knowing without a shadow of a doubt that there are people out there willing to commit suicide just to kill you, they've done it before and they have governments who sponsor them. I'd sure as hell want my government to protect me at any cost from this clear and present danger.
webfusion
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Not even one question about Israel
Prominent New York Rabbi Marc Schneier was the main speaker at the prestigious Razi Muslim High School in New York yesterday.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/646987.html
This is part of the legacy of Rabin, IMO.
I know how easy it to become burnt-out from all the MidEast threads, Z-N (not just here, but in many forums throughout the web community). I am posting this to offer a bright light in an otherwise dark tunnel.
Let's take it for what it's worth.
Prominent New York Rabbi Marc Schneier was the main speaker at the prestigious Razi Muslim High School in New York yesterday.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/646987.html
- Schneier's appearance was initiated by Boris Pincus, a Jewish emigre from Uzbekistan who is the founder of Religions in Dialogue and president of the American Association of Central Asian and Caucasian countries.
Schneier said his talk, which began with a survey on Judaism, lasted about two hours and focused mainly on questions and answers. He said the students displayed a keen interest in the Jewish religion, adding the event was one of the most moving experiences of his rabbinic career.
This is part of the legacy of Rabin, IMO.
I know how easy it to become burnt-out from all the MidEast threads, Z-N (not just here, but in many forums throughout the web community). I am posting this to offer a bright light in an otherwise dark tunnel.
Let's take it for what it's worth.
Yossi Alpher's article from Bitterlemons covers me completely. I find amazing though how many Israelis share the same feelings regarding the famous handshake of Rabin-Arafat and felt Rabin's pain that was obvious all over his face.
More later.
More later.
Yeah, right...
You say that, but in practice, when push comes to shove, you've pretty much excused or denied or spun into oblivion Israeli misdeeds, and you're not the only one...
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Yeah, yeah... (Yawn) And that, of course, justifies human rights abuses, eh?
If your government is willing to do anything to "protect you", then you government is no better than the people it is protecting you against. They too, the terrorists, believe that their cause is just. They too are willing to do anything for their cause and their people.
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Suuuuuuuuure. When you unfairly criticize israel while ignoring the rest of the middle east, that's just because you care about its freedoms and have a relatively high view of them. And when you beat your wife, that just proves you love her.
Wait--not really. That's just a post-hoc, unconvincing excuse by the israel-basher (or wife-beater) that tries to explain the blatant double standard in his behavior, namely, treating the country (or woman) he "cares" or "appreciates" or "loves" so much so much worse than he treats everybody else. And what better way to "answer" the criticism that your behavior shows you hate israel (or your wife) than by a clever rhetorical argument which claims to show that unfairly bashing israel far more than anybody else, or your wife's head far more than anybody else's head, just "proves" you "really" care?
As this explanation that doesn't require any modification of one's blatant double standard, it's pretty darn popular by the wife-beaters or israel-bashers. But it's still BS. How about changing your double standard instead of finding some clever argument to justify it, eh, Orwell?
Mycroft
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Yeah, right...
This is you, Orwell. No argument, just an eye-roll.
On this forum, I've always defended Israel to those that would unfairly vilify her.
With this rhetoric of yours, you turn the very fact that I hold and defend my opinions into evidence that I’m wrong without ever needing to find any specific fact where I am wrong.
Do you see the problem with that?
If you think I’m wrong, feel free to try and show me where and how. I’ll be more than happy to discuss it with you, and if you make a good enough argument I may even change my mind.
But right now all you’re doing is claiming I’m wrong because I disagree with you. You’re not offering any evidence or even making a cogent argument.