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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

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What are you talking about? There is no evidence Guede was ever downstairs the night of Nov. 1. I have never seen this claimed before.

That's my take on it. There is a whole thread on IA discussing the subject, as well as an article on the Wiki. I don't believe that cats can jump and leave their blood on light switches, or leave so much blood from a tiny little ear, that's all.
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/

Hoots
 
What are you talking about? There is no evidence Guede was ever downstairs the night of Nov. 1. I have never seen this claimed before.

No good or reliable evidence. There's odds and ends to it though, for the hungry theorizer.
 
That's my take on it. There is a whole thread on IA discussing the subject, as well as an article on the Wiki. I don't believe that cats can jump and leave their blood on light switches, or leave so much blood from a tiny little ear, that's all.
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/

Hoots

Cat ears can bleed profusely, just as dog ears do. When they shake their head vociferously, blood can fly all over the place, including onto the wall light switch.

Ears have lots of blood vessels, so when wounded they bleed profusely.
https://nasc.cc/pet-university/hematoma-cats/

If Guede had gone downstairs to change, clothes would have been missing from that apartment. No report of any such missing clothes was made by the boys.
 
No good or reliable evidence. There's odds and ends to it though, for the hungry theorizer.
Well maybe I'm a hungry theoriser, but I do believe Rudy was downstairs, he certainly had the key and the means. Rudy himself said he was covered in blood so he would have been in desperate need to change his clothes.

Hoots.
 
Well maybe I'm a hungry theoriser, but I do believe Rudy was downstairs, he certainly had the key and the means. Rudy himself said he was covered in blood so he would have been in desperate need to change his clothes.

Hoots.

But that key was found in the upstairs apartment on Nov 6. Guede would not have opened the door downstairs and then returned the key upstairs. Unless you think the police are lying about that, too?

Even if that key were on MK's key ring with her other keys or Guede found it elsewhere, he would have no way of knowing that it fit the door downstairs.

I agree that he was covered in blood, which is why I think he went back to his apartment via the dark wooded park behind the cottage and not through the streets. This would have led him right past the Lana's yard where he tossed the cell phones upon realizing that he couldn't safely fence them. The exit from the park was literally within a few feet of his front door in a small alley with little chance of being seen by anyone.
 
Were all the keys accounted for? I seem to remember a set was missing. If they were all accounted for, were they tested for prints/blood?
 
Were all the keys accounted for? I seem to remember a set was missing. If they were all accounted for, were they tested for prints/blood?

The keys were never found. I suspect they're somewhere in the heavily wooded park between the cottage and Guede's apartment.
 
The keys were never found. I suspect they're somewhere in the heavily wooded park between the cottage and Guede's apartment.

..... as is the murder weapon, the one that made the in-blood outline on the sheet in the victim's bedroom.

Ok, that's speculation, but not unreasonable speculation.

This is the issue which turned Frank Sfarzo's trademark snark away from the kids. He'd been blogging about rich students getting into trouble, until sometime (before Rudy was discovered) he ventured down to the cottage.

At the cottage he had casually asked a cop if they were searching that large wooded area to the north and below the cottage. One large heave by Rudy would have buried it deep in the foliage.

But the cop said, "oh, we found the knife." That was when Sfarzo found out that the keystone cops had simply lifted a random knife **from Raffaele's apartment**. They'd not even bothered with the large wooded area to the north.

That was the beginning of Sfarzo's trademark snark being turned on to the cops and courts. And "Pignini".

Methos might know better than me, but someone, if not Sfarzo, claimed that the apartment kitchen knife had never been meant for Court- it was meant to turn up the heat on Sollecito.

Anyway, that was the first of Sfarzo's trademark, "the cops there just weren't very bright." Even in Winterbottom's 2014 film in which Frank played a huge role, he even aimed his snark at Barbie Nadeau: "She's nice enough when you meet her, but when she writes she's a real b*tch."
 
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What are you talking about? There is no evidence Guede was ever downstairs the night of Nov. 1. I have never seen this claimed before.




There was a whole line of thinking around the possibility of him having been downstairs at some point. How did you go from never hearing about it to completely discrediting it in about an hour?

I honestly don’t remember the evidence for it, but it had to do with a bed spread or some such thing being missing and of course the blood. I think there was a third thing, which as I recall made it all a bit much to hand wave away.
 
There was a whole line of thinking around the possibility of him having been downstairs at some point. How did you go from never hearing about it to completely discrediting it in about an hour?

I honestly don’t remember the evidence for it, but it had to do with a bed spread or some such thing being missing and of course the blood. I think there was a third thing, which as I recall made it all a bit much to hand wave away.

I read up on it and used logic. I knew about the downstairs theory, but not the part where Guede has changed his clothes. No evidence of that whatsoever. No bedspread was missing. The blood was cat's blood...unless you go "the results were faked to protect Guede" route. Marco Marzan said the cat had been in a fight and had an ear wound which explains the blood. As I linked to earlier, cat ears have a lot of blood vessels and can bleed profusely, especially if a hematoma develops from an injury. Shake that bleeding ear and you'll get blood all over just like a dog shaking water off after a bath. I did't hand wave it away. I looked at the evidence at it just isn't there.
 
I read up on it and used logic. I knew about the downstairs theory, but not the part where Guede has changed his clothes. No evidence of that whatsoever. No bedspread was missing. The blood was cat's blood...unless you go "the results were faked to protect Guede" route. Marco Marzan said the cat had been in a fight and had an ear wound which explains the blood. As I linked to earlier, cat ears have a lot of blood vessels and can bleed profusely, especially if a hematoma develops from an injury. Shake that bleeding ear and you'll get blood all over just like a dog shaking water off after a bath. I did't hand wave it away. I looked at the evidence at it just isn't there.

Are you sure of these points?

Stefanoni did not conduct any forensic test to determine whether or not these blood stains were indeed from a cat, and indeed did not claim to have done any such species-specific test.

In fact, the DNA forensic testing that she conducted on the alleged cat-blood samples necessarily confirmed one of the following possibilities for each of the samples tested that showed DNA amplification: 1) The alleged cat blood contained human DNA and was therefore human blood; 2) The alleged cat blood was in fact non-human blood, but the sample contained human DNA from the surface under the blood; 3) the alleged cat blood contained human DNA and was therefore human blood, and the sample also contained human DNA from the surface under the blood.

A number of the downstairs blood samples, including those from the light switch, were indeed DNA-profiled, but the profiles were suppressed by Stefanoni (and thus, by the prosecution).

In previous discussions on ISF, Chris H. pointed out that there were no commercially available forensic DNA tests for cats when Stefanoni conducted her DNA testing.

All forensic DNA test kits of the type that Stefanoni used (polymerase chain reaction, PCR) have primers that identify and bind to relevant DNA sequences near each short tandem repeat (STR). An STR is a short length of DNA useful (in tests relying on a sufficient number of known STRs) for the forensic identification of individuals. These primers react specifically with sequences of human DNA. Thus, sequences near the STRs in cat (or other non-primate) DNA will not be bound by the primers. Thus, there will be no replication (amplification) of the template DNA if it is from a cat.

Regarding the possibility of the cat having shaken its head and scattered blood on a wall, including over the light switch, this possibility was not mentioned in the testimony before the Massai court of VQA (Assistant Police Chief) Giobbi. He stated that the blood stain above the light switch was produced by the cat jumping. However, he did not state that anyone had observed this jump. Nor did he mention that there were additional blood spots or scatter on that wall.

Here are some statements* from the downstairs tenants about the blood stains:

Stefano Bonassi November 3, 2007

I left the duvet over the two bed cushions to avoid them getting covered with dust.
I don’t know what to say regarding the blue pillowcase stained with blood because it was hanging and clean when I left.
I don’t know how to explain the traces of blood on my duvet given that my door was locked with a key as well as the window.

Marco Marzan November 3, 2007

When I was leaving, there was no blood on the floor in the house; on the walls, perhaps there were small spots caused by insects.
The black cat actually has an injured ear but I am not aware that it has dripped blood. I am astonished by the fact you have told me, that there is a lot of blood on Stefano’s bed. I have never seen any stain of blood on the light switch in the hall.

How do you reconcile these statements, and the evidence of forensic-test DNA amplification as reported by Stefanoni which requires the presence of human DNA, with your apparent certainty that the downstairs blood was from a cat with a bleeding ear?

And what about this information* which includes reference to a chart compiled from the "cat blood" DNA test results as supplied to the defense by Stefanoni:

The relevant lab records (“SAL’s”) were not disclosed until 2009, and then revealed that each of the 28 downstairs/outside Exhibits had been subjected to a presumptive test for blood (TMB), and 20 of the traces returned a positive result, indicating the likely presence of hemoglobin. The SAL characterized 18 of these as species-specific to “cat/gatto” but gave no further detail as to alleged species-specific blood testing. Curiously, Stefanoni testified that the “cat blood” had been deposited sometime after the police broke into the downstairs apartment, but before they collected the samples. Testimony by the residents of the downstairs apartment casts doubt on the theory that a cat been wounded sufficiently to have deposited all of the blood stains from downstairs/outside.

The question remains: were the downstairs samples really “cat blood”? The Scientific Police’s records are inconclusive and their actions suggest that they did not believe the samples were “cat blood”:

No species-specific blood test was observed by the defense, no methodology to identify species is disclosed in the SALs, and no corresponding test records have been produced.
The lab did not stop testing the samples that its records now say are “cat blood” (as would be expected if it believed it was dealing with cat samples), but instead, the lab subjected all of these traces to subsequent human-specific DNA analysis (Real Time PCR amplification and STR amplification).

The results of the Lab’s DNA testing undercut the suggestion that a species-specific blood test was performed, leading to a proper identification of all of the blood-positive samples as “cat blood”:

Only 2 of the 18 “cat blood” traces failed to quantify at least some human DNA.
Of the 20 blood-positive traces, 8 had sufficient quantity of human DNA such that, per the Lab’s practice, they could be genetically profiled. Of these 8 traces, the Lab records suggest that at least 6 were genetically-profiled (via STR analysis), but none of the ensuing 6 profiles have been disclosed by the prosecution.

It is implausible that some of the items identified as “cat blood”would actually have been deposited by a cat or that a cat could bleed from the ear that much:

Item Nos. 8, 9 and 10 form a path of 10 apparent freshblood drops leading down the steps to the entry door to the downstairs apartment. The number and placement of drops appears too profuse to be from a cat. In addition, the drops are wide and diffuse, suggesting that they might not represent drops of pure blood, but rather, blood thinned with water.
Item No. 28 is a lightswitch on the wall of the downstairs apartment. The lightswitch samples are the only blood samples from inside of the downstairs apartment that are not identified as cat’s blood.
The blood samples and their arrangement in the bedding may be too profuse to have been deposited by a cat.

There are irregularities in the analysis of some of the “cat blood” items, which suggest that there could have been problems with the lab analyses:

Of the 10 traces forming the path down the steps and to the entry door to the downstairs apartment, 8 were negative for blood and 2 were positive for blood, even though all traces obviously derive from a common source. Further, 5 of these traces quantified at least some human DNA via Real Time PCR. Two of the blood-negative traces quantified asufficient quantity of human DNA that per the Lab’s practice, they could be genetically profiled, and yet, no corresponding profiles were produced.
The two profiles apparently generated from the lightswitch traces (positive for blood, no species identified) appear to be missing from the prosecution’s document production
.

And here is yet more information* from the testimony of a defense expert on DNA:

CONSULTANT- The hypothesis are varied, but what amazes me even more is that what is being reported in the technical report is completely different from the results of the report.
LAWYER BONGIORNO- Why?
CONSULTANT- Because it is written in the technical report, “all three traces of blood belonging to exhibit 2 have been attributed to cat’s blood, the test confirmed by the negative results obtained for DNA quantification”[/HILTE], but where is the negative result obtained for DNA quantitation ? Here the result is positive for this trace.
*Source:http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/
 
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Vixen only objects to the defense being given more time as this worked in Amanda and Raffaele’s favour. If the prosecution had been given more time than the defense Vixen would not complain as this would work against Amanda and Raffaele.

It is a convention in law that each party is treated equally. This means having the same right to opening speeches, witnesses, cross-examination and closing speeches.

If one party gets to have a two hour closing speech, so should the other party.

In England & Wales and in Italy it seems, the judiciary frowns on any skeleton argument in an appeal that is longer than two sides (at most) preferably one side of double spaced A4-size paper. One counsel who dared to present 15 pages was severely reprimanded.

Yet here we had Bongiorno presenting 340 pages! SHOCKING!!! :eye-poppi:jaw-dropp most of wich had never been presented nor tested/cross-examined at trial.

Still, we know Bruno was once charged with mafia offences (which he was acquitted of).
 
Oooh and Vixen: please give us the evidence to show that the Knox family engaged in a "$2 million PR campaign".

After all, you proudly state that all your claims are based on hard facts and reliable sources. So if that's true, you MUST have the hard facts and/or reliable sources to support this claim. Isn't that so, Vixen?

And at one point, you blithely wrote the two words "David Marriott", apparently meaning that Marriott himself was the source for your claim. So show us the evidence that Marriott was the source, Vixen.

At another, later, time, you seemed to claim that the Knox family itself was the source for your claim. So which is it, Vixen? And once again, where's the evidence?

You see, Vixen, an argument (and a connected series of arguments) only carries an acceptable level of intellectual honesty when it's supported by reliable evidence. And therefore when claims are thrown around and remain unsupported by any reliable evidence - in spite of numerous requests for that evidence - well, this kind of automatically eradicates any credibility not only for that particular claim, but also for all other unsupported claims. That's how it works, Vixen.

So: evidence please. Or retraction. OK?

I told you to refer to Curt Knox' speech on some steps shortly after his daughter was charged. It's in the public domain. Nothing obscure or mysterious about it.
 
Once again, you seem to inhabit a fantasy world in which the Massei court verdict and reasoning carries any weight.

News for Vixen: the Massei verdict was expunged. And not only that, it was excoriated by the Marasca SC panel, which (correctly) ruled that it had been incabable of assessing the evidence in accordance with the required law, and had been manifestly unfair.

So perhaps it's time for you to stop relying on what the Massei court decided and wrote about, Vixen. Its "reasoning" is literally worthless. OK?

A merits court cannot be 'expunged' as it presents the facts other courts rely on.
 
What are you talking about? There is no evidence Guede was ever downstairs the night of Nov. 1. I have never seen this claimed before.

He himself said he was downstairs, standing on a chair in the boys' bathroom to see who was pulling up in the car park outside. Silenzi said he had tidied his room as he always did before departing on his skiing trip, yet when he returned, it was in chaos.
 
Well maybe I'm a hungry theoriser, but I do believe Rudy was downstairs, he certainly had the key and the means. Rudy himself said he was covered in blood so he would have been in desperate need to change his clothes.

Hoots.

Yeah, he knew the downstairs apartment well and that there was a low balcony nearby, which is why he wouldn't have bothered with a 13'4" sheer wall and an obviously shuttered window around the other side.
 
It is a convention in law that each party is treated equally. This means having the same right to opening speeches, witnesses, cross-examination and closing speeches.

If one party gets to have a two hour closing speech, so should the other party.

In this case there were the authorities, then lawyers for the civil parties including the Kerchers, Patrick, & apartment owner that got to take part in this mess, giving them much more of a presence than the defense.
 
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