The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

[abaddon]

ABADDON for the defence [for it is he]: I submit your Honour that the victim fell onto the knife first to the left and then onto another knife to the right. I submit she tripped on the rug as testified by my er, expert, um learned, friend <cough> TomG and thus brought about her own death.


JUDGE: Remove this man from my court.

Of course you simply fantasised that little courtroom "drama".

And that is instructive of the foundation of your entire position. It is all built on fantasy.

 

[Bill Williams]

. - NO evidence Amanda washed Meredith's blood from her hands.

Indeed. Even the first convicting court conceded that this factoid had to be inferred from grounds other than the forensics. Why? Because even the Scientific Police (Stefanoni herself) conceded that there was no way scientifically to I.D. it as Knox's. The subsequent 2015 ISC acquittal court made oblique reference to an "elegant proof" of Knox's DNA found in Meredith's blood, but when you go looking for that proof, you find there wasn't one - just an inference.

Such is the nature of factoid based evidence.

 

[Stacyhs]

Vixen, the alternate universe you are living in is getting weirder and weirder.

Only another woman would pull a woman's hair? That's right up there with Mignini's assfact that 'only a woman would cover the body'.

Guede didn't need 'six hands'. According to you, Knox and Sollecito were active partners in subduing a struggling Kercher. If that were so, then their DNA would have been left somewhere on Kercher's body or her clothes...just as Guede's DNA was. Their hands would have been bloody and they'd have left bloody fingerprints...just as Guede did. They'd have stepped in Kercher's blood and left bloody shoeprints...just as Guede did. And, please, don't trot out that old chestnut about a 'woman's size 37 shoe print' that not a single judge, including your beloved Massei, accepted as existing.

As already posted, Kercher was not a 'kick boxer'; she had an orange belt in karate which is a beginner level (level 3 out of 9). She wasn't Bruce Lee.

Yet again, you're two knife factoid isn't backed up by the facts: ALL the wounds could have been made by ONE knife...a smaller knife like the one that left the bloody imprint on the sheet. The kitchen knife was determined to be incompatible with the smaller wounds. Even Lalli told Mignini he thought there was only one knife. Women are overpowered by ONE man, raped, and killed all the time in this world. And none of those men have "four to six hands".

Knox had all the signs of having been in a cat fight. Her lower earring was ripped off and there was a large scratch mark on her neck under her chin.

False. Her earring was not 'ripped off'; that is a lie told by you and your fellow nutters. Nor was there a 'large scratch' on her neck. Knox was examined by the prison doctor upon her arrest and neither of these were documented by him. Since not a single police officer or Mignini or the doctor noted these alleged marks, they either didn't exist or they were all completely incompetent.

We know scientifically for a fact she left her own blood in the sink, which actually dominated Mez' blood. Their DNA is mixed. Knox and Mez were oozing blood the same time.

Ah....nice try at implying it was Knox's blood,not her DNA from saliva, etc, that was mixed with Kercher's blood in the sink. Nice try at the "oozing blood at the same time" bit, too. I guess she wasn't 'oozing blood' in the bedroom though, heh? All that 'oozing' only happened in the bathroom over her own sink where she cleaned her new ear piercings and not in Kercher's bedroom where all that struggle took place and where Knox's earring was supposedly ripped out of her ear, right? Knox wasn't bleeding there. No, it waited until she got to the bathroom sink. The sink where she KNEW there was blood because she pointed it out to the police. Blood she would have known could be hers. But, she doesn't clean it up. No. She points it out to the police instead! Just like she points out Sollecito's bloody footprint on the rug to the police! Wow! This makes sense to you?

 

[LondonJohn]

Take a breath. From the lack of defence wounds it is clear Meredith had her arms restrained (person one) there is a small stab wound directed from one side (person one or two [or even three] holding such weapon on that side); there is a major fatal stab wound directed from completely the opposite direction by a large kitchen knife [person two [one or three].

Mez was a fit young lady trained in kick-boxing who most certainly would have fought back under such attack (wouldn't you???) yet the only defence wounds are a couple of slight knife flicks to her fingers.

The court accepted the opinion of the expert pathologist that the nature of the wounds indicated more than one attacker.

Sure, one determined young man could feasibly have gripped both hands behind a victim's back to still them and inflict a knife wound with the other AND sexually assault them at the same time. However, to then stop and change knives - and using the other hand - is only feasible in the fevered imaginations of the PIP zealots.

According to the nutter-PIP view, the attacker had four to six hands by which to inflict the evil murderous acts.

I can't be bothered to point out quite how many false assumptions have been made in the above post (whether through ignorance, poor critical thinking, latent bias, or a combination of any/all of those). But others can be bothered, so that's OK.


(Oh and again, the descriptor "nutter" can only reasonably be applied to the pro-guilt side in this (non)debate - just as, for example, the descriptor "nutter" can only reasonably be applied to the "truther" side in the 9/11 (non)debate, or the done-in-a-TV-studio-on-Earth side in the Moon landings (non)debate. Start getting it right. Please and thank you!)

 

[LondonJohn]

The guilter lunatics cannot grasp the simple concept that the "acts" did not occur simultaneously, or at least not entirely simultaneously. Two-handed, single attacker Guede carried out the acts.

As for taking a breath, since that tends to lead to improved brain functioning, it would behoove you to give it your full attention for the foreseeable future.

I suspect Vixen would state with blind conviction that the BTK killings simply could not have been carried out by one diminutive man acting alone - since whole families had allowed themselves to be tied up before being tortured and killed. In Vixen's

Edited for rule 0 and rule 12

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin

universe, if there had been only one perpetrator, surely one or more of the family members would have just run away, or the family en masse would have overpowered this sole assailant. Therefore, in Vixen's

Edited for rule 0 and rule 12

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin

world, this must be proof that the BTK killings were carried out by multiple assailants.

See, what Vixen is apparently either unable or unwilling to understand (even though it's been explained in detail to her several times now....) is that if a person or family is offered a carrot and stick option by an assailant (e.g. "get on your knees and don't struggle - if you comply I won't hurt you, but if you struggle or call out I'll kill you"), the obvious psychological choice is compliance (assuming the victim does not actually know at that point that the endgame is certain death). Especially if the assailant has a weapon (e.g. a gun or a large knife) with which he could easily cause serious injury or death very quickly if he so desired. One would have thought that all competent psychology students - even those from third-class educational establishments - would learn this in Year 1.

And that's precisely how the BTK killer forced entire families into compliance - indeed, in many instances he actually persuaded the family members to tie each other up. And in turn, it's almost certainly precisely how Guede forced Kercher into compliance - at least up to the point where (IMO) he initiated a sexual assault by pulling down Kercher's jeans from behind, whereupon (again IMO) Kercher involuntarily struggled, precipitating the smaller stabs to the neck from Guede, which in turn precipitated a full scream from Kercher, which in turn resulted in Guede inflicting the deep stab wound to the neck. That sort of scenario - a wholly feasible one IMO - would have meant that Kercher would indeed have had no real defensive wounds at all.

 

[LondonJohn]

And who pulls a woman around by the hair except another woman? Knox had all the signs of having been in a cat fight. Her lower earring was ripped off and there was a large scratch mark on her neck under her chin. We know scientifically for a fact she left her own blood in the sink, which actually dominated Mez' blood. Their DNA is mixed. Knox and Mez were oozing blood the same time.

Knox' claim in the witness box 'Mez must have been on her period, ew' just about says it all.

Wow. Just wow. The usual toxic mixture of nasty fantasy and plain ol' inept "reasoning" that we've come to know and love*


(Oh and it's Knox's, not Knox'.)


* not

 

[LondonJohn]

Indeed. Even the first convicting court conceded that this factoid had to be inferred from grounds other than the forensics. Why? Because even the Scientific Police (Stefanoni herself) conceded that there was no way scientifically to I.D. it as Knox's. The subsequent 2015 ISC acquittal court made oblique reference to an "elegant proof" of Knox's DNA found in Meredith's blood, but when you go looking for that proof, you find there wasn't one - just an inference.

Such is the nature of factoid based evidence.

Absolutely.

And Vixen also seems either unable or unwilling to understand precisely why this nonsense about Knox being present in the cottage at the time of the murder persisted throughout the various verdicts*. Once again it's been explained patiently to her several times, but (predictably) it appears to go in one ear and out the other. No surprise there.


* And of course it's because of the prior SC reasoning in respect of the (now in tatters) Knox criminal slander "conviction" - there was no way any subsequent SC panel was going to flat-contradict that prior SC verdict, since doing so would only create a conflict which could probably only be resolved by way of a messy revision trial process. The Marasca SC panel - as is abundantly clear by any intelligent reading of its verdict reasoning - knew that it could easily throw out Knox's and Sollecito's murder-related convictions for the dreadful nonsense that they truly were, without even needing to contradict the prior SC ruling that Knox was in the cottage (hence the Marasca "even if...." construction). But of course people with either a lack of sufficient intellectual horsepower or a determination to attempt misdirection and mischief will continue to blithely misrepresent this matter. Plus ça change.....

 

[Stacyhs]

LondonJohn's reference to the BTK killer reminds me of the EIGHT nurses killed on one night in their apartment by a lone man in 1966. Richard Speck was able to torture, rape and kill 8 grown women. The killer, Richard Speck, didn't have 'six hands'. But, according to Vixen, a lone man couldn't control one young woman without help. Gotta love it.

The nightmare started at around 11 p.m. on July 13. Amurao, asleep in her locked bedroom on the second floor along with two other Filipino nurses, heard a knock on her door.
When she opened it, a tall man, dressed in black, his face pockmarked with acne scars, was pointing a gun at her.

He rounded up the two other Filipino nurses, Merlita Gargullo, 23, and Valentina Pasion, 24, and three American-born students who were in other rooms — Pamela Wilkening, 20, Pat Matusek, 20, and Nina Jo Schmale, 24.

Somehow, Amurao, Gargullo, and Pasion managed to break away and hide in a closet.

A short time later, Amurao said, she heard a woman's voice, one of the other nurses, urging the girls to come out. She said the stranger was not going to harm anyone; all he wanted was cash for a trip to New Orleans. When the three nurses emerged from the closet, they found the man and the American nurses sitting in a circle on the floor. He was holding a gun on them.

Other dorm residents — Gloria Davy, 22, Mary Ann Jordan, 20, and Suzanne Farris, 21 — walked in on the hostage scene later and immediately became part of it. The women thought he was going to take their money and leave until he pulled out a knife and started ripping bed sheets into strips, wrote Dennis Breo and William Martin in "The Crime of the Century." He used those strips to bind hands and feet and gag his captives.

Bound, Amurao rolled under a bed and listened as, one by one, seven of her companions were taken into another room, brutalized and killed. She remained still and silent as the killer raped and murdered his last victim, Davy, in the same room where Amurao was hiding. About four and a half hours after the ordeal started, he walked out the door and disappeared.

Miraculously, he overlooked Amurao. A couple of hours later, she freed her hands and feet and ran from the house.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nurse-hides-8-friends-raped-murdered-1966-article-1.2705565

 

[Vixen]

LondonJohn's reference to the BTK killer reminds me of the EIGHT nurses killed on one night in their apartment by a lone man in 1966. Richard Speck was able to torture, rape and kill 8 grown women. The killer, Richard Speck, didn't have 'six hands'. But, according to Vixen, a lone man couldn't control one young woman without help. Gotta love it.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nurse-hides-8-friends-raped-murdered-1966-article-1.2705565

I'm betting you can also justify and explain how Speck was not the killer and how the prosecution and the police got it all wrong.

 

[abaddon]

I'm betting you can also justify and explain how Speck was not the killer and how the prosecution and the police got it all wrong.

More fantasy. That really is all you have, isn't it?

 

[Vixen]

More fantasy. That really is all you have, isn't it?

On the contrary, Ms Whataboutery Staceyhs can think of all sorts of alternative reasons for Knox' bloody footprints, mixed DNA, blood on lightswitch, Raff's knife, her DNA on hilt, Mez' DNA on blade, etc., etc.

There is even an alternative universe to 'explain' why all the courts including the final Supreme Court ruled that:

• There were multiple attackers
• Knox was present at the murder *during the time Meredith Kercher was killed*
• Amanda Knox did wash Meredith Kercher's blood from her hands
• Knox did name Patrik Lumumba because she was covering up for Rudy Guede
• Raffale Sollecito was almost certainly there with her
• The pair told umpteen lies
• Sollecito willfully supplied a false alibi.

In other words, the pair got away with murder and what is more her fans are happy about it!

It is simply shocking that anyone can condone this type of behaviour but they do. No doubt Speck has his fans, too.

No need to get personal. I am merely quoting the judges, who are trained and experienced criminal barristers.

Unlike yourself.

 

[TomG]

I'm betting you can also justify and explain how Speck was not the killer and how the prosecution and the police got it all wrong.

Hah! If Giuliano Mignini was the prosecuting magistrate who orchestrated the case against Speck, and the cops that were involved were of the same calibre as those involved in the Kercher case, I'd not only doubt the case against Speck, I'd doubt the case against anyone.

Hoots

 

[Vixen]

Hah! If Giuliano Mignini was the prosecuting magistrate who orchestrated the case against Speck, and the cops that were involved were of the same calibre as those involved in the Kercher case, I'd not only doubt the case against Speck, I'd doubt the case against anyone.

Hoots

So not based on reason or rationality but blind hate and irrational dislike of the person who brought the initial prosecution against your idol/s.

Yes, we see.

 

[Welshman]

Vixen makes the ludicrous claim only a woman would pull someone's hair. One thing I have learned is that you should never underestimate the stupidity of PGP posters.

 

[TomG]

So not based on reason or rationality but blind hate and irrational dislike of the person who brought the initial prosecution against your idol/s.

Yes, we see.

I have no idols in this case, I don't concern myself about K&S as individuals, but I do care about justice being done. The real perpetrators of the crime against Meredith and her family, are namely Mignini and Comodi who protected the real killer at the expense of innocents. Both are individuals that you would quite happily invite to your home for a spot of tea and sticky buns methinks.

Finally "we" don't see anything, you are practically all that's left of the little pro-guilt ragamuffin army left to pea-shoot from the shrubbery so don't get carried away.

 

[Welshman]

You don't half talk a lot of 'justifying' nonsense to try to get your darling off the hook. Knox knew Guede well enough for him to know her name and where she was from. They even enjoyed a joint together so don't talk bollocks.

Vixen has the hypocrisy to accuse me of talking nonsense when Vixen makes the ludicrous claim Amanda and Raffaele comitted murder with Guede despite the massive problems with this scenario. Vixen claims that Amanda must have known Guede because Guede knew Amanda's name and where she was from. Even by Vixen's standards this argument is ludicrous. Guede could find information about Amanda by asking other people. The prosecution had six years and three main trials to argue their case. If any evidence existed of a relationship between Amanda and Guede, why is that the prosecution couldn't find any evidence of a relationship between Amanda and Guede. When Amanda was lied to she had HIV, it is likely the purpose of this lie was the prosecution were expecting Amanda to write a list of her sexual partners and they hoped Guede would be included in this list. If evidence existed of a relationship between Amanda and Guede, why would the prosecution need to resort to this tactic?

The fact Amanda barely knew Guede and Raffaele didn't know Guede at all is not the only issue with the scenario of Amanda and Raffaele committing murder with Guede. There are numerous other holes in this scenario which Vixen refused to address.

 

[TomG]

On the contrary, Ms Whataboutery Staceyhs can think of all sorts of alternative reasons for Knox' bloody footprints, mixed DNA, blood on lightswitch, Raff's knife, her DNA on hilt, Mez' DNA on blade, etc., etc.

There is even an alternative universe to 'explain' why all the courts including the final Supreme Court ruled that:

• There were multiple attackers
• Knox was present at the murder *during the time Meredith Kercher was killed*
• Amanda Knox did wash Meredith Kercher's blood from her hands
• Knox did name Patrik Lumumba because she was covering up for Rudy Guede
• Raffale Sollecito was almost certainly there with her
• The pair told umpteen lies
• Sollecito willfully supplied a false alibi.

In other words, the pair got away with murder and what is more her fans are happy about it!

It is simply shocking that anyone can condone this type of behaviour but they do. No doubt Speck has his fans, too.

No need to get personal. I am merely quoting the judges, who are trained and experienced criminal barristers.

Unlike yourself.

It doesn't require an alternative universe is just requires commonsense. The first 5 your bullet points are not substantiated by any evidence, but are providing unwitting confirmation that there are judicial facts and there are actual facts. The judicial facts you refer to are conclusions confirmed by the courts that have no basis in truth, but by some sort of perverted judicial alchemy became useful in prosecuting the case against K&S. If the prosecution had been forced to stick to the actual facts the case against K&S would have collapsed. You haven't substantiated your other bullet points.

If K&S have gotten away with murder as you say you would have no problem in providing a sustainable crime scene narrative involving K&S in the murder of Meredith, incorporating your bullet-points indicated. The bottom line is that no sustainable pro-guilt crime scene narrative exists, ergo your bulleted points, which are nothing new and are standard pro-guilt fodder, are left stranded and are thus factual baloney.

Hoots

 

[LondonJohn]

On the contrary, Ms Whataboutery Staceyhs can think of all sorts of alternative reasons for Knox' bloody footprints, mixed DNA, blood on lightswitch, Raff's knife, her DNA on hilt, Mez' DNA on blade, etc., etc.

There is even an alternative universe to 'explain' why all the courts including the final Supreme Court ruled that:

• There were multiple attackers
• Knox was present at the murder *during the time Meredith Kercher was killed*
• Amanda Knox did wash Meredith Kercher's blood from her hands
• Knox did name Patrik Lumumba because she was covering up for Rudy Guede
• Raffale Sollecito was almost certainly there with her
• The pair told umpteen lies
• Sollecito willfully supplied a false alibi.

In other words, the pair got away with murder and what is more her fans are happy about it!

It is simply shocking that anyone can condone this type of behaviour but they do. No doubt Speck has his fans, too.

No need to get personal. I am merely quoting the judges, who are trained and experienced criminal barristers.

Unlike yourself.

Isn't it strange then that you consistently choose NOT to quote from the only judges whose opinions actually matter in this case: the judges of the Italian Supreme Court on the Marasca panel (who correctly and justly tore the prosecution and errant lower courts to pieces on the murder-related charges), and the judges of the European Court of Human Rights (who tore the State of Italy to pieces on Knox's criminal slander "conviction").

You should try quoting those judges some time, Vixen. It might help you to understand this case better.......


ETA: it's Knox's, not Knox'

 

[LondonJohn]

So not based on reason or rationality but blind hate and irrational dislike of the person who brought the initial prosecution against your idol/s.

Yes, we see.

My Irony-o-meter has just literally exploded


ETA: "We" LOLOLOL (tantamount to a 9/11 Truther saying "We know for sure that the US Government planned and executed the demolition of the Twin Towers" LMAO)

 

[AnimalFriendly]

I suspect Vixen would state with blind conviction that the BTK killings simply could not have been carried out by one diminutive man acting alone .

Thanks for the example of the BTK killings, well said. One of the reasons PGP insist that Kercher had to have been murdered by multiple assailants is that this somehow, in their twisted minds, raises her heroic status. Witness them always bringing up her very elementary skills in martial arts as if this somehow "proves" that more than 1 person "had" to have been involved. One wonders why they never seemed to apply this "reasoning" to Jody Arias having managed by HERself to stab her ex(?) BOYfriend to death.