Jeffrey Epstein arrested for child sex trafficking

[Venom]

I sometimes wonder how jailed people know to hang themselves. Or cut their wrist.
Doesn't seem instinctual and yet.

 

[dann]

One statistic I heard quoted on TV (I'm afraid I haven't looked for the source) suggested that the hyoid, while broken in about a third of murders by strangulation, was also broken in about 28% of suicides by hanging.

More often in the elderly, and Epstein was 66.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I sometimes wonder how jailed people know to hang themselves. Or cut their wrist.
Doesn't seem instinctual and yet.

Well, prison gives you an extraordinary amount of time to focus on a particular goal.

"In prison, a man will do almost anything to keep his mind occupied."

 

[Trebuchet]

More often in the elderly, and Epstein was 66.

I refuse to think of 66 as "elderly", since I'll soon be 71.

 

[kellyb]

The "broken bones in the neck" seem to have been one bone, the hyoid bone,

Nope:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...9ac934-bdd9-11e9-b873-63ace636af08_story.html

An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein suffered multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple.

 

[Babbylonian]

I refuse to think of 66 as "elderly", since I'll soon be 71.

I think there's a river in Egypt we need to discuss...

 

[GlennB]

Nope:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...9ac934-bdd9-11e9-b873-63ace636af08_story.html

Yes, and I'm reading different reports mentioning both bone and bones.

Apart from the flimsy hyoid the only other bones in the neck are the seven vertebrae, which are flanked by significant muscle. If we take as true the business of him being found in 'a kneeling position' it's all very hard to fathom.

"Cervical spine fractures most often result in complete hangings where the patient is dropped from a significant height. As previously stated, this height is usually greater than or equal to the patient’s height. Fracture of the second cervical vertebrae, otherwise known as the “hangman’s fracture,” leads to internal decapitation and immediate death."

link

Will the autopsy become public? Fractured hyoid I get, but other bones? Not really.

 

[Checkmite]

I'm sure the medical examiner in New York is aware of what kinds of injuries are consistent with violent strangulation and declared suicide to be the cause of death because a plurality of the available evidence supported that conclusion instead.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I'm sure the medical examiner in New York is aware of what kinds of injuries are consistent with violent strangulation and declared suicide to be the cause of death because a plurality of the available evidence supported that conclusion instead.

Well there should be no issue with making all the information available so that assessment can be verified or falsified.

 

[Checkmite]

Available to peers, meaning medical and forensic professionals, certainly.

Available to self-appointed "internet detectives" looking for evidence to support a ridiculous conspiracy theory, no.

 

[GlennB]

Available to peers, meaning medical and forensic professionals, certainly.

Agreed, but would that preclude it becoming available to the public?

Available to self-appointed "internet detectives" looking for evidence to support a ridiculous conspiracy theory, no.

See above.

p.s. I'm not subscribing to any CT, just saying that the reports are unclear on whether it's bone or bones, and if bones then which bones and how many. Multiple fractures of the cervical vertebrae plus fracture of the hyoid are not consistent with self-strangulation by a kneeling man.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Available to peers, meaning medical and forensic professionals, certainly.

Available to self-appointed "internet detectives" looking for evidence to support a ridiculous conspiracy theory, no.

Then I reject the ME'e claims. A key requirement of scientific skepticism and method is the open presentation of all evidence.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The "broken bones in the neck" seem to have been one bone, the hyoid bone, which is small, fragile, and apparently not uncommonly broken in suicides by hanging.

One statistic I heard quoted on TV (I'm afraid I haven't looked for the source) suggested that the hyoid, while broken in about a third of murders by strangulation, was also broken in about 28% of suicides by hanging.

So, it being broken in Epstein's case really doesn't tell us all that much.

Some vertebrae were also broken, all of which suggests he jumped off something to get a good fall.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

p.s. I'm not subscribing to any CT, just saying that the reports are unclear on whether it's bone or bones, and if bones then which bones and how many. Multiple fractures of the cervical vertebrae plus fracture of the hyoid are not consistent with self-strangulation by a kneeling man.

It is if he jumped off something.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Available to peers, meaning medical and forensic professionals, certainly.

Available to self-appointed "internet detectives" looking for evidence to support a ridiculous conspiracy theory, no.

What about valid concern over the unnatural death of a high-profile suspect while in custody?

I have no pet theory or preferred scapegoat in this matter. I want to know what happened, how it was allowed to happen, and what is going to be done to prevent it in the future.

Getting the manner of death right is critical to getting those other issues sorted out properly.

Suicide or otherwise, our public institutions just took away his victims' right to see justice done.

 

[Arcade22]

Multiple fractures of the cervical vertebrae plus fracture of the hyoid are not consistent with self-strangulation by a kneeling man.

They can murder him in prison without anyone there noticing anything, but they can't hire competent coroners to falsify the death certificate without some "obvious" inconsistencies.

#derpstate

 

[GlennB]

It is if he jumped off something.

True, but the forensic opinion in my link above is that the drop needs to be several feet to break cervical vertebrae. That suggests he stood on some furniture that was pretty high. Probably too high given the dimensions of a typical cell or room in an everyday household.

What might this sheet have been attached to? What might he have stood on? How did he end up on his knees? The geometry of it makes no sense at all.

I suspect it was just the hyoid bone broken by self-strangulation.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I'm not an expert by any means, but I had understood it's a combination of the "6 foot drop" and the way a noose is formed that cause the internal decapitation. This is why the noose is cinched down right against the back of the neck after putting it around them. It's a small bit of mercy to make it quick and avoid prolonged suffering (and a gruesome display as this method was also common in an era of public executions). A similar consideration was made for burning heretics. They used seasoned wood and lots of kindling to get it good and roasting fast, hoping the condemned succumbed to the fumes. A slow burn meant an hour of agonizing theatrics (which on some occasions left the viewers full of sympathy rather than fear of the same fate).

I'm provisionally incredulous over a blanket and a hop off of a bunk bed causing that much damage. My understanding is most prison hangings rely on carotid restraint and then strangulation once the body goes limp.

Also, to clarify again, my concern is more "how did we let someone achieve this feat while in custody."

 

[Checkmite]

What about valid concern over the unnatural death of a high-profile suspect while in custody?

I have no pet theory or preferred scapegoat in this matter. I want to know what happened, how it was allowed to happen, and what is going to be done to prevent it in the future.

Getting the manner of death right is critical to getting those other issues sorted out properly.

Suicide or otherwise, our public institutions just took away his victims' right to see justice done.

What you've just described here, is the reason why a professional autopsy was performed. You need a different justification for questioning the result of that autopsy.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

What you've just described here, is the reason why a professional autopsy was performed. You need a different justification for questioning the result of that autopsy.

I'm comparing the result of the autopsy to the variables present in the cell.

Furthermore, if the autopsy is accurate, that means we need to make changes to prisoner accommodations because people shouldn't be able to break their neck like that in custody.

Perhaps what I'm zeroing in on isn't what you think I'm trying to zero in on?