David Irving arrested in Austria

BTW, you have not dealt at all with my points on the limitations to free speech always being there, and you're wrong; it's not so people won't be tempted, it's so those already active cannot advance their agenda. Too bad for them.
I agree, there are always limitations on free speech - and there should be.

But I think hate speech laws are so much foolishness. They are an attempt to regulate behavior by regulating thought. I don't care what my neighbor thinks of me, as long as he does me no harm. And I don't care whether he hit me on the head with a brick because he hates me or because he just digs hitting people on the head with bricks - I want him in jail. There's a fine line there; screaming you hate the filthy Jews can come awfully close to incitement to riot. But rioting is a crime. Screaming you hate the Jews is not. Or shouldn't be, anyway.
 
Strangely enough, Europe lost millions of people because of Naziism, which is a problem the USA has not (yet) had. That means a certain lack of tolerance of advocating it in public.

Similarly, Europe has a huge history of political executions, and are currently much more opposed to capital punishment than the US is.

Over here, neo-Nazis are a kookey fringe group. There? Remnants of a murderous, genocidal war machine. I also find it ironic that they, like communists in the West too, try to rely on freedom of speech to advance a system that relies on lack of same.
 
But I think hate speech laws are so much foolishness.
*shrug*
You're entitled to that opinion, however you base it on several mistakes, such as...
They are an attempt to regulate behavior by regulating thought.
.. such as this claim, which is simply very wrong.
Such laws only regulate public behaviour, and do not regulate thought in the slightest.
 
Once the laws are democratically made, as in Germany or in Austria, they are there by choice of the electorate.
I see. So I could go to Germany and Austria and try to recruit people into a little Nazi cell...? If not, then I am behaving by compulsion. If I can be punished for my behavior, my behavior is being compelled - it is not my choice, even if it might have been the choice of people who are now dead.

Why do Germans and Austrians need laws forbidding them to speak favorably of the Nazis?
 
Nope, I pointed out your own definition of "hate speech" simply does not apply. What I pointed out to you was that a different definition applied to David Irving in those countries.
My definition applies. As far as I know, David Irving hasn't served any time in jails for violating the hate laws unlike nazis I have seen behind bars. David Irving has been labelled by many countries as a " persona non grata". This is a diplomatic term. I for example I am a " persona non grata" in Turkey. If they bust me in their borders they will arrest me and show me the way out of the country. Of course, if they wish they can find something to sue me as well but this is a political matter.

We must define politics from the law and its application.

It's true that the perception of free and hate speech varies from country to country and it is determined by its cultural and mainly its historical background. Even I ( you seem relatively new so maybe you can't get the joke) consider the German legislation hysterical but for them it's an issue that still hurts.
It proves the point of what laws actually apply and what definitions of hate speech are relevant.
:)
I have observed the David Irving affair really closely and if you exclude his arrests in front of the camera lights, David Irving would be in prison long ago if he had committed any crime and for me, advocating murder is a serious crime.
 
This makes the mistake of thinking that Irving's claims are not discussed in the countries which forbid advocation of Holocaust denial or revivalism. That is a huge misunderstanding of the situation --- claims such as Irving's are very often discussed very openly and refuted openly.
There is a big difference between discussion and advocation.
How can people discuss Irving's claims if he is not allowed to make them?
 
I see. So I could go to Germany and Austria and try to recruit people into a little Nazi cell...? If not, then I am behaving by compulsion. If I can be punished for my behavior, my behavior is being compelled - it is not my choice, even if it might have been the choice of people who are now dead.
* More heavy sighing *
Already dealt with this. I will do so again:
I see. So I could go to the USA and burgle and murder as I like? :) If not, then I am behaving by compulsion. If I can be punished for my behavior, my behavior is being compelled - it is not my choice, even if it might have been the choice of people who are now dead

Tsk. See the problem? Just because you don't like a democratically made law doesn't give anarchy any ethical elevation.
Why do Germans and Austrians need laws forbidding them to speak favorably of the Nazis?
This has already been dealt with, in fact several times, so deal with it.
 
But I think hate speech laws are so much foolishness. They are an attempt to regulate behavior by regulating thought. I don't care what my neighbor thinks of me, as long as he does me no harm. And I don't care whether he hit me on the head with a brick because he hates me or because he just digs hitting people on the head with bricks - I want him in jail. There's a fine line there; screaming you hate the filthy Jews can come awfully close to incitement to riot. But rioting is a crime. Screaming you hate the Jews is not. Or shouldn't be, anyway.
This is a delicate issue you know. On a certain level I agree with you but on the other hand the existence of hate laws demonstrate the willingness of a society to define the most extreme of its borders.
Don't stick on the Nazis only. The hate laws wish to address the raise of radical islamism as well. How do you feel about that? I predict that hate laws will have a role to play against the demonization of Islam which is a serious issue and I don't wish to see it happening.

It's good to define the borders. I'd say that I don't have any problem with the hate laws as long as in the same time free dialogue is encouraged.

Look at your country. You dscribe it as the paradize of free speech and yet in some schools it's forbidden to teach some scientific chapters!!

Rhetorics are easy in some cases but hardly do they manage to address the real issues.
 
BTW, you have not dealt at all with my points on the limitations to free speech always being there, and you're wrong; it's not so people won't be tempted, it's so those already active cannot advance their agenda. Too bad for them.

Like I said, it's their country. If you enjoy defending censorship, that's your business. Frankly, I prefer how we do things here.
 
Well... I don't know about that but certainly you can't go everywhere in USA and teach evolution or talk to teenagers about contraception....
Heh heh HEH, Good point. Oh, very good point. I hadn't thought of that. Oooer, free speech for educationalists in the USA!
:)
 
Neither of those posts answers my question, so let me ask it another way:
What bad things would happen if people in Germany and Austria were allowed to openly espouse Naziism? Please be specific.
Perhaps you had better deal with my points? I dislike repeating things. It's ever so unnecessary.
 
Like I said, it's their country. If you enjoy defending censorship, that's your business.
Dearie me, now I am supposed to be defending censorship as an abstract?
Think again. :) I made very clear the argument is on what the limits are, not whether there are limits at all; the myth of unrestrited free speech is only that, a myth. Unrestricted free speech does not exist in the USA.
Frankly, I prefer how we do things here.
Frankly, I prefer a country where you can talk about gays, contraception an evolution in classes, or wear ant-president T-shirts, without getting nastily hassled. So I don't like the USA on that score and prefer where I am. But then, tastes differ. :)
 
Here I go again for the third time on this forum, repeating this:

“Nobody has the right to tell anybody else what he can publish.”

Odd, the way that simple and, I contend, unassailable truth gets European knickers in a twist. (Not you, Cleopatra, and thank you for your expression of love for freedom of speech. I never thought for a moment that you felt any other way.)

Objectors to the assertion that nobody has the right to curtail anybody’s else’s speech always bring up yelling “Fire!” in a crowded theater, and follow it with “Yeah, and how about libel and slander?” U.S. laws against uttering menaces against public officials, specifically a serving president, generally follow. Then the objectors settle back delighted with their argument, and rebuttals bounce off them like dried peas off a bronze donkey.

The “Fire!” example (has that ever happened, by the way?) is useful. Such acts are criminalized because they’re an attempt to do something that is other than speech. Similarly (and more realistically), using a bullhorn to coordinate a mob would be participation in a violent act – something other than or more than speech.

Slander and libel are not crimes. They may be actionable under civil law, and you may be successfully sued for slander and libel, but only if the plaintiff can show that he’s suffered damage from what you published. (Laws that attempt to define criminal libel are still on the books here and there in the U.S., but I’ve never heard of them being used, except in one case where a white politician tried to silence a black politician who had criticized him. I doubt the case went very far.)

Uttering menaces against a politician is considered destructive of the peace, i.e., it’s something more than speech; the public good is assumed to be endangered by it. I think that’s pretty chancy law, but I guess I can see the point. (I was once had up for uttering menaces against a private citizen; I had to post a $500 bond. The case melted away in the hot light of certain facts, e.g., he’d fired a gun at me and then belted me with it.)

However, I love attempts at censorship, and I love censors for their laughable obtuseness. For example, I could print T-shirts bearing a picture of Alfred E. Neuman with a fresh bullet hole in his head, and everybody would know exactly what I meant – and Oh! how I would hope that some harrumphing Republican would try to get me in trouble for it!

Gurdur, I’m glad you’ve cracked Nazi heads. Sounds as if you went and did something other than and more than speech. (Next time, wear a jacket with a thick turned-up collar. Pack it with a folded magazine if you can. That will turn most knives, and may God bless your endeavors.)

Jocko, I know how your head feels after butting it against European brick. But just because you’re right, you shouldn’t get testy. Remember that their behavior is motivated by fear. No, not feat of Nazism; the Nazis had a lot of admirers all over Europe in their heyday. What Europeans fear, and have feared for centuries, is freedom of speech.

But not all of them. About that quote I started out with: I read that many years ago in a German book about censorship. It has a pithy bluntness that I admire very much, and I’m ashamed that it wasn’t an American who said it. You’ll never find an American who disagrees.
 
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