Stochastic Terrorism and Edgelord Humour

[jimbob]

Yeah, even allowing for translation issues, it's kind of a rambling mess.




Churchill was one of the few who took it seriously, and attempted to warn the allies about the Holocaust well before it became common knowledge. He was effectively shouted down by influential members of parliament, and ignored by much of the rest of the world.

The weird part is that even Jews in the US downplayed the warning from Churchill and others (including refugees); considering the idea so ludicrously heinous that no reasonable human could possibly have meant what Hitler and his cronies said, and wrote it off as counter-productively exaggerated propaganda. One can see their point, the scale and scope of it was unprecedented in human history, but the intent was very clear in the Nazis' published writings and public speeches.

And in the context of this discussion, as has been pointed out by several posters, modern Nazi ideology is informed by and in favour of the Holocaust. The fact that it was indeed a genocidal ideology in the 1930s is merely icing on the cake.

There are other ideologies that are also inherently violent, but Communism need not be, to take the example that is sometimes used as a tu-quoque when complaining how harshly Nazis are treated compared to other political groups

 

[luchog]

There are other ideologies that are also inherently violent, but Communism need not be, to take the example that is sometimes used as a tu-quoque when complaining how harshly Nazis are treated compared to other political groups

Yeah, that's the problem with whataboutisms here. Communism as an ideology is not inherently violent, although it is inherently utopian and unworkable in real life; which is why it tends to degenerate into totalitarianism and violence when attempts are made to implement it at any scale larger than a local voluntary community. Nazism is inherently violent, exclusionary, and elitist by design, that's present in all of the foundational writings, going back to the original volkisch movements that spawned it.

 

[dann]

Communism is not "inherently utopian, on the contrary. When attempts are made to 'implement' it at any scale, it immediately becomes the target of violence in order to 'prove' that it is "unworkable in real life."

 

[luchog]

Communism is not "inherently utopian, on the contrary. When attempts are made to 'implement' it at any scale, it immediately becomes the target of violence in order to 'prove' that it is "unworkable in real life."

Of course it's inherently utopian. It presumes all members acting in good faith according to their best ability, and has no workable solution to the free rider problem.

The only way that true Marxist communism can work is in a post-scarcity society, at which point it is redundant anyway.

Even Marx posited an intermittent authoritarian phase between capitalism and communism as necessary for a communist society to develop, the "dictatorship of the proletariat"; which would "naturally" dissipate on its own into a pure communist society. The problem is that that theory ignores human nature, and the tendency for power to breed corruption and the lust for more power. His theory is dependent on perfect rational actors, which simply do not exist in real life.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Lets get back to your original comment:







You asked for why people say that Nazism is explicitly violent.

Nazi propaganda called for killing of Jews even before the war.

source?

That is explicitly violent. Even more so, Nazis killed millions of Jews, diverting scarce resources to do this. That is the what is attractive to modern Nazis. Face it, the rest of their ideology is pretty incoherent, except for "death to those we consider inferior".

Source?

Communism might have caused many deaths, particularly Stalinism, but the basic ideology of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" is *not* promoting murder.

In practice, Communism is unworkable and would tend to lead to violent dictatorship, but in terms of its own theory, it is aiming to make an equitable world where everyone has enough. Nazism, however, in terms of its own theory, wants to make a world of death.

Source?

 

[Darat]

source?


Source?

...snip...

Have a read in any of the holocaust denial threads here. The golden olde is here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202147

One is surprised that you are unaware of the "final solution" and the holocaust.

 

[d4m10n]

When attempts are made to 'implement' it at any scale, it immediately becomes the target of violence in order to 'prove' that it is "unworkable in real life."

Bay of Pigs invasion seems like a weird example to choose, given the previous large scale implementations of Stalinism^WP / Maoism^WP / Kimism^WP etc.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

One thing commonly ignored in the right-wing whataboutism for that time is that eugenics was never official federal government policy in the US. It was a minority belief restricted to academics funded buy private individuals and corporations, and was implemented only in a small way by a number of state governments. The only eugenics-inspired federal government policies were limited to immigration restrictions, and the Supreme Court upholding the states' rights to implement such polices.

Further, eugenics in the US did not involve mass murder as it did in Nazi Germany; but rather manifested in the form of forced sterilization, immigration restrictions, and privately-funded breeding programs. The closest the US came to the polices of the Nazis was a minuscule handful of doctors causing high death rates among "undesirable" patients by encouraging the spread of disease, or outright neglect. The "euthanasia" wing of the eugenics movement was extremely unpopular, even among other eugenicists.

The other key difference is that eugenics in the US was not based along strictly racial/ethnic lines the way that it was in Nazi Germany. Immigration programs were ethnicity-based, but all other programs in the US were based along class lines, and targeted primarily "defective" individuals -- that is, those with developmental disorders, mental illness (the biggest target), and the poor and underclass. Welfare recipients were among the most common targets of forced sterilization.

Eugenics programs were actually quite popular among African-American communities, where they were touted as a means of reducing poverty through reduction in overpopulation.

A more apt comparison to the Nazi regime was not eugenics, but the policy of Manifest Destiny. The policy was a contested one, and saw considerable opposition in the federal government despite being popular with the majority. To support Manifest Destiny at that time was to support the genocide and "ethnic cleansing" of the First Nations peoples; as the great push west involved, by policy, the displacement and mass-murder of large numbers of indigenous peoples, a policy that still affect them to this day.

Would you say that Manifest Destiny can be interpreted as the United States policy of murdering millions of my fellow citizens?

 

[theprestige]

Communism is not "inherently utopian, on the contrary. When attempts are made to 'implement' it at any scale, it immediately becomes the target of violence in order to 'prove' that it is "unworkable in real life."

To be fair, when attempts are made to implement it, it immediately becomes a source of violence, too.

 

[dudalb]

This thread has officially gone into the dumpster.

 

[Checkmite]

Have a read in any of the holocaust denial threads here. The golden olde is here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202147

One is surprised that you are unaware of the "final solution" and the holocaust.

He's asking the questions in bad faith; feel free to conserve your energy.

 

[Eddie Dane]

To be fair, when attempts are made to implement it, it immediately becomes a source of violence, too.

Not on a small scale (village, kibbutz, commune etc).

Just lots and lots of boring meetings and taking votes on expenditures, what to build, who will do what job etc etc etc.

commissions can run factories and such just fine, I think. But try to organise a whole society that way and stuff seems to go consistently awry.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Have a read in any of the holocaust denial threads here. The golden olde is here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202147

One is surprised that you are unaware of the "final solution" and the holocaust.

I’m just as surprised at the number of people who are unaware of the Holodomor which is a direct result of the inherently violently murderous ideology of communism. Even if advocating the murder of millions of my fellow citizens was not part and parcel of the communist ideology (which it is), people who are attracted to radical left wing movements like democratic socialism join these movements with full knowledge of the murderous history of the ideology. In fact, they join these movements BECAUSE they are attracted to the murder.

 

[Darat]

I’m just as surprised at the number of people who are unaware of the Holodomor which is a direct result of the inherently violently murderous ideology of communism. Even if advocating the murder of millions of my fellow citizens was not part and parcel of the communist ideology (which it is), people who are attracted to radical left wing movements like democratic socialism join these movements with full knowledge of the murderous history of the ideology. In fact, they join these movements BECAUSE they are attracted to the murder.

What's that got to do with what you were asking about I. E. Nazism?

 

[I Am The Scum]

What's that got to do with what you were asking about I. E. Nazism?

There are a lot of people on this forum who think criticism of nazis requires some kind of a "balance."

 

[d4m10n]

There are a lot of people on this forum who think criticism of nazis requires some kind of a "balance."

If we learned anything from the Eastern Front in WWII, it's that commies provide the perfect counterbalance to nazis. I'm so thankful they didn't team up against the free west.

 

[dann]

Bay of Pigs invasion seems like a weird example to choose, given the previous large scale implementations of Stalinism^WP / Maoism^WP / Kimism^WP etc.

No, it doesn't. It's the most obvious example. Similar invasions and coups took place whenever a Latin American country attempted to free itself from the rule of the United Fruit Company even when they were just kind of left wing and not at all communist:
1954 Guatemalan coup d'état
1973 Chilean coup d'état
Salvadoran Civil War

Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War
After Lenin died, Stalin took control of the Soviet Union and killed the communists, but still ...
Operation Barbarossa
The Soviet Union: Socialism as a World Power

Second Sino-Japanese War
Superpower China?

North Korea is what happens when Don Corleone takes over an entire country and can enforce his clan rule with a secret police rather than just capo henchmen

 

[d4m10n]

After Lenin died, Stalin took control of the Soviet Union and killed the communists, but still ...

Operation Barbarossa

Nazi invasion designed to create lebensraum for a German ethnostate was actually motivated by fascist ideological commitment to wipe out communism after it had already been killed off by Stalin? Um, okay.

 

[d4m10n]

Second Sino-Japanese War

Ended several years before the People's Republic of China was founded. Have you any reason to believe the Japanese were intervening to prevent that particular result?

 

[d4m10n]

A fine example of "Stochastic Terrorism" in action:
https://twitter.com/NOLAnews/status/1152611758948982784

https://buff.ly/2YXyUNj