Democrats Move to Ensure No More AOCs

[Ziggurat]

We've been asking people to explain why Trump telling 4 non-white Congress people to "Go back where they came from" isn't racist for 4 days now in the Trump thread and the people who jump to defend his every fart haven't said a word.

Sod your "But nobody will answer my question"

I never argued it wasn't racist, so... why should I answer a question that doesn't really apply to me?

As for why you should answer my question, it's because you inserted yourself into this discussion about who Trump was talking about. I didn't insert myself into the discussion of Trump's tweet being racist or not racist. I've stayed out of that.

 

[kookbreaker]

Contra Zig, I think the gotcha is in the refusal of people who claim to know who Trump was talking about, to support their reasoning from the text of what Trump actually said. Incidentally, another big potential gotcha, that could blow up in Zig's face, would be if someone supported the claim that it was AOC, from the actual text of what was said.

Or we're just sick of racism supporters playing dodgeball to avoid the main issue at hand.

Go back to the crowd and chant "SEND HER BACK" and just be done with it.

 

[Belz...]

I've tried it. Being better than that doesn't work, it doesn't help, and nobody actually cares if I am.

I do. Why do you think I push you towards it so much?

Go tell that to everyone else in this thread hurling insults at large groups they happen to disagree with politically.

Maybe you haven't noticed but I frequently do. I just can't catch every instance. I do have to sleep.

 

[Belz...]

Contra Zig, I think the gotcha is in the refusal of people who claim to know who Trump was talking about, to support their reasoning from the text of what Trump actually said.

He flat out tells them to go back to their country, and the larger context tells you exactly who he was talking to and about.

This reminds me of having to wrestle about Trump not using the word "promise". Come on. It's beneath this sort of conversation.

I never argued it wasn't racist

Is it?

 

[theprestige]

Or we're just sick of racism supporters playing dodgeball to avoid the main issue at hand.

Go back to the crowd and chant "SEND HER BACK" and just be done with it.

Send who back? To where?

 

[Belz...]

Send who back? To where?

Oh, did you miss that? People at a Trump rally yesterday were chanting "SEND HER BACK" at Trump's mention of Ms Omar. That's who, and you can guess where.

 

[Ziggurat]

He flat out tells them to go back to their country, and the larger context tells you exactly who he was talking to and about.

No. It isn't "the larger context" which tells you who he was talking about. It's his own words in those tweets themselves which do.

 

[Belz...]

No. It isn't "the larger context" which tells you who he was talking about. It's his own words in those tweets themselves which do.

Ok I gave you my answer. What's yours?

 

[theprestige]

He flat out tells them to go back to their country, and the larger context tells you exactly who he was talking to and about.

This reminds me of having to wrestle about Trump not using the word "promise". Come on. It's beneath this sort of conversation.



Is it?

Is it racist? I guess that depends who you're talking about, and how you define racism. Telling someone to go back to wherever they came from could be racist. It could also be ideological. I can give you some examples of how this works, if you like. Another option is you present some of the details of this case, and your reasoning from those details to the conclusion that it is (or isn't) racism in your opinion.

My position is this: The race card gets thrown around so much that any time it comes up I default to the null hypothesis - not racism. This is especially true in the case of Donald Trump, who seems to be the subject of a lot of circular reasoning. We know this is a racist statement because of how racist Trump is. We know how racist Trump is because of all these racist statements we know he makes.

On the question of whether tbat particular statement is racist, I'm agnostic. On the claim that it is racist, I take the null hypothesis by default, until the claim is actually supported.

We can probably discuss this more, but at this point it would help if you clarified your position a little bit: Do you take this as a question that may or may not have a good answer? Or are you making a claim one way or the other?

 

[Belz...]

Is it racist? I guess that depends who you're talking about, and how you define racism. Telling someone to go back to wherever they came from could be racist. It could also be ideological.

How about now, in the current situation, here, about Ilhan Omar, according to you?

On the question of whether tbat particular statement is racist, I'm agnostic. On the claim that it is racist, I take the null hypothesis by default, until the claim is actually supported.

Which you've conveniently made sure can never happen. Trump would never say this to someone he feels is a true American^tm. There's really only one reason to say this: you don't belong in America. Now, what could possibly prompt this, I wonder? Gee, I guess we'll have to assemble a team of post-graduates to answer that one!

 

[The Great Zaganza]

From a historical context, "sent x back" is unambiguously racist, no question whatsoever.

 

[theprestige]

Oh, did you miss that? People at a Trump rally yesterday were chanting "SEND HER BACK" at Trump's mention of Ms Omar. That's who, and you can guess where.

Thank you. That falsifies this claim:

... The Great Gawd Trump says she should go back where she came from...

This being the claim that Ziggurat rebutted, I think the thing to say at this point is simply, Q.E.D.

 

[Belz...]

Thank you. That falsifies this claim:

This being the claim that Ziggurat rebutted, I think the thing to say at this point is simply, Q.E.D.

No, those are two separate events. One was yesteray, the other sunday.

But a nice demonstration that you'd rather score internet points than address something posted directly for your benefit.

 

[theprestige]

How about now, in the current situation, here, about Ilhan Omar, according to you? : rolleyes :

Did I stutter?

Which part of my previous posts did you disunderstand?

- I'm taking the null hypothesis - not racism - until argued otherwise by somebody who claims otherwise.

- If you're claiming otherwise, it's up to you to support your claim. It's not up to me to defend the null hypothesis.

- Are you claiming otherwise? It would help further discussion if you clarified this point.

Which you've conveniently made sure can never happen. Trump would never say this to someone he feels is a true American^tm. There's really only one reason to say this: you don't belong in America. Now, what could possibly prompt this, I wonder? Gee, I guess we'll have to assemble a team of post-graduates to answer that one!

Regarding my third point, about helping the discussion, you seem to be trying to hinder it instead. I know we can have civil discussions, and even agree on things. And I know we can even disagree on a rational, civil basis. I'm telling you as plainly as I know how that I'd like to do that. You seem to be sending very strong signals that you're not interested. Should I keep trying? Or should I just acknowledge the impasse and move on?

 

[theprestige]

No, those are two separate events. One was yesteray, the other sunday.

Thanks for the correction. I'll modify my arguments accordingly, going forward.

But a nice demonstration that you'd rather score internet points than address something posted directly for your benefit.

Slow your roll, Belz.... I traced the posts back to Trebuchet's claim and Ziggurat's rebuttal.

Between then and now, the conversation has expanded to cover two separate events, and I got confused.

At this point I'm appealing to the angels of your better nature, to keep this discussion on a civil footing, and not give in to the kind of meanness you're displaying here.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ok I gave you my answer. What's yours?

Not much of an answer, since you don't say what this context is.

But fine, I'll tell you. First, let's review the text of the tweets in question (combined here for simplicity):

So interesting to see “Progressive” Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how it is done. These places need your help badly, you can’t leave fast enough. I’m sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements!​

Let's list the qualities Trump mentions:
1) Democrat Congresswomen
2) originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe
3) loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States... how our government is to be run

Who fits that description? People have claimed that he's referring to "the squad". And all four members of "the squad" fit items 1 and 3. But what about item 2?

Well, really only Ilhan Omar fits. She was born in Somalia, whose government is a disaster.

As the child of immigrants from Palestinian territories (also a disaster of a government), Rashida Tlaib comes closest of the rest. But she was born in Detroit. And while Detroit's government is also a catastrophe, it's not a different country.

AOC is further removed, since both of her parents were born in the US. Same with Ayanna Pressley, the last member of "the squad". So neither of them fit the bill, not even by proxy because of parental origin.

 

[kookbreaker]

Or, as is more likely, our dumbass bigoted President thinks brown-skinned people are by default not ‘from here’.

And for some reason you give him all the benefits of all the doubts.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Not much of an answer, since you don't say what this context is.

But fine, I'll tell you. First, let's review the text of the tweets in question (combined here for simplicity):

So interesting to see “Progressive” Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how it is done. These places need your help badly, you can’t leave fast enough. I’m sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements!​

Let's list the qualities Trump mentions:
1) Democrat Congresswomen
2) originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe
3) loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States... how our government is to be run

Who fits that description? People have claimed that he's referring to "the squad". And all four members of "the squad" fit items 1 and 3. But what about item 2?

Well, really only Ilhan Omar fits. She was born in Somalia, whose government is a disaster.

As the child of immigrants from Palestinian territories (also a disaster of a government), Rashida Tlaib comes closest of the rest. But she was born in Detroit. And while Detroit's government is also a catastrophe, it's not a different country.

AOC is further removed, since both of her parents were born in the US. Same with Ayanna Pressley, the last member of "the squad". So neither of them fit the bill, not even by proxy because of parental origin.

Okay let's just hit the "I believe button" and say that

A) All of that is true
B) All of that matters.

Trump telling just these one Congress person to "Go back where they came from" for that reason and within that context... would still be racist. Blatantly racist. Cartoonishly racist. The example that's in the handbook racist.

 

[Belz...]

Did I stutter?

Which part of my previous posts did you disunderstand?

Nothing. I was responding to the part of the post I was responding to. What part of that did you "disunderstand"?

Regarding my third point, about helping the discussion, you seem to be trying to hinder it instead. I know we can have civil discussions, and even agree on things.

I know we can, too. So why suddenly weave a web of impossible obstacles to agreement just because now once again the morality of a Republican is in question? The same guy you called a bunch of names the other day.

 

[Belz...]

Well, really only Ilhan Omar fits. She was born in Somalia, whose government is a disaster.

If only Omar fits, why did Trump use the plural? If we're going to treat that Tweet as something to be read with surgical precision, he didn't use the singular.

As anyone who knows racism can tell, being born in the US isn't necessarily a defining characteristic of who one finds to be a real American^tm. AOC's parents are from not-America, and that also matters to them.