Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Steve]

Morally speaking, do you think it's okay to have separate sports leagues/conferences/changing rooms/festivals/etc. just for women? This is a yes/no question, but you are welcome to hit these issues one-by-one.

Not directed at me but my answer may clarify my position.

Morals have little to do with my position.

Yes, I think it is ok and I think it is reasonable. I do not think it is mandatory although a majority of society seems to think that it should be. I am ok with that too.

This in no way means that I will treat any named gender differently than any other in my daily interactions with people.

 

[JihadJane]

Why do you persist in reading things into posts that are not there? Neither p0lka nor myself used the word “we”.

I have had no personal involvement with segregating women by any of the examples that you gave. I do not care at all what rooms a woman (or man or ?) chooses to use, what sports organizations a woman (or man or ?) chooses to belong to, or what conferences or meetings a woman (or man or ?) chooses to attend. None of these things will influence me to treat any person differently than any other.

You don't care if women and girls are forced out of women's sport by men who choose to call themselves women?

You don't care if men who choose to call themselves women use women's toilets, refuges and changing rooms?

So therefore......?

Seems a reasonable position to me. Treat everyone the same. Keeps life simple. Are you suggesting that it should be controversial?

No, I'm suggesting that your claim to treat everyone the same is unreliable because your only reference is subjective. Babies are treated differently from the moment their sex is known. This is mostly subconscious behaviour.

 

[d4m10n]

This in no way means that I will treat any named gender differently than any other in my daily interactions with people.

I'm totally on board with this, and I've said as much before.

It is possible to treat transwomen as women for all of your own social and personal purposes while recognizing that the designated gatekeepers of gender/sex-segregated spaces have a difficult and thankless task ahead of them.

It's cool that you strive not to treat women any differently than men in your everyday life, Steve, so say we all. That said, this thread is about the difficult policy choices which must be made in order to maintain, reform, or eliminate existing sex- and/or gender-segregated leagues/institutions/public spaces. It's not enough just to say, hey not my problem. Or rather, it is exactly enough to say that if you don't really hope to address any of the difficult issues which we've been addressing in this thread.

 

[The Atheist]

So, what does a boy at an all-boys school do when he decides to transition to female?

Go ahead and do it* - no change of school necessary: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/ed...es-incredible-support-of-transitioning-senior



*May not work in some countries.

 

[theprestige]

If there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that the best women are men. Transwomen are ******* feminism right in the ass, and the primary beneficiaries are men.

Sorry Rolfe. Even this unreconstructed conservative wishes it were otherwise. But progress marches on, and there's nothing I can do to stop it.

 

[d4m10n]

Transwomen are ******* feminism right in the ass, and the primary beneficiaries are men.

Turbocharging?

 

[p0lka]

You don't care if women and girls are forced out of women's sport by men who choose to call themselves women?

You don't care if men who choose to call themselves women use women's toilets, refuges and changing rooms?




No, I'm suggesting that your claim to treat everyone the same is unreliable because your only reference is subjective. Babies are treated differently from the moment their sex is known. This is mostly subconscious behaviour.

In your opinion..

The amount of putting words into other peoples mouths in this thread is quite interesting.

 

[d4m10n]

The amount of putting words into other peoples mouths in this thread is quite interesting.

As is the amount of failing to count up the foreseeable consequences of one's norms, when applied broadly.

 

[8enotto]

Or the ability to see consequences of elimination of norms. In life not everyone gets exactly what they want. Someone has to lose when neither side accepts compromise.

And it is nearly alway the greater numbers that win long term.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Have you ever noticed how the threads that are the most active are the ones that never get anywhere in the discussion?

 

[d4m10n]

Have you ever noticed how the threads that are the most active are the ones that never get anywhere in the discussion?

I have a theory about this.

 

[Meadmaker]

Have you ever noticed how the threads that are the most active are the ones that never get anywhere in the discussion?

Hope springs eternal.


If we explain it just one more time, the other side will get it, surely.

 

[The Atheist]

Have you ever noticed how the threads that are the most active are the ones that never get anywhere in the discussion?

That's why they're the most active - groups of people talking right past each other, repeating themselves ad nauseum.

 

[GlennB]

I have a theory about this.

AHEM! Is it yours?

 

[d4m10n]

AHEM! Is it yours?

I may well have appropriated it.

 

[p0lka]

Morally speaking, do you think it's okay to have separate sports leagues/conferences/changing rooms/festivals/etc. just for women? This is a yes/no question, but you are welcome to hit these issues one-by-one.

Morally speaking? that's a completely different topic.

I think I might have took the thread offtopic a bit, it's gender roles that make no sense to me, whereas the thread seems to be more about the physical attributes.

 

[theprestige]

Morally speaking? that's a completely different topic.

I think I might have took the thread offtopic a bit, it's gender roles that make no sense to me, whereas the thread seems to be more about the physical attributes.

This thread is about the intersection of physical attributes, self-perception of gender, and gender roles in society.

You seem to be trying to pick out the thread of gender roles in society, but the problem is that you can't really do this without unraveling the whole tapestry.

 

[The Atheist]

This thread is about the intersection of physical attributes, self-perception of gender, and gender roles in society.

Nope.

The thread is about the simple fact that trans women are not women.

Everything else is actually a red herring.

 

[d4m10n]

...I might have took the thread offtopic a bit, it's gender roles that make no sense to me, whereas the thread seems to be more about the physical attributes.

The thread(s) have been about sex, gender, and people who don't find the one to match the other. We've ranged over all sorts of variations on the theme. I feel like you've sort of dodged my question, though, so I'll ask it a different way. Do you think the gendered role "women's professional soccer player" is a role which ought to exist?

This thread is about the intersection of physical attributes, self-perception of gender, and gender roles in society.

Yes.

The thread is about the simple fact that trans women are not women.

No.

 

[theprestige]

Nope.



The thread is about the simple fact that trans women are not women.



Everything else is actually a red herring.

Nope.

Everything else is just figuring out what that means and whether it's actually true.

But go on being wrong, if that's your pleasure.