Cont: Brexit: Now What? 7th heaven...

[McHrozni]

Yes oddly they seem fine with the picture that the London Evening Standard took of the couple sitting in a garden holding hands despite the fact that it looks as though it's a pap pic.

It also doesn't show Johnson's face, the clothing they're wearing seems quite warm for the weather on the day it was supposed to be taken and Boris new "Serious Leader" haircut seems to have grown out in a day. But I'm sure that's nothing.

Here's the article with the photo:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-symonds-picture-after-flat-row-a4175156.html

They're a bit overdressed for a record-breaking heatwave, but Monday wasn't that hot in UK (~23°C in London according to AccuWeather, I can't vouch for accuracy) and they're sorrounded by nature. For an early morning chat their clothes aren't that out of the season.

BJs' hair does contrast nicely with the other photos in the article though.

A proper way to address the question would be an interview with Carrie Symonds, not a photo of her and BJ holding hands. That's where the issue ends, IMHO.

McHrozni

 

[The Don]

We go to the pub every Tuesday after band practice. The pub is in a well-to-do part of South East Wales that was party of England until 1974. The clientele is pretty mixed by age, is roughly 50/50 incomer (like me and Mrs Don) or local and whilst most incomers are well off, quite a few of the locals are agricultural labourers or have similar poorly paid jobs.

Three members of the band lean left (by US standards, we've all left the Labour Party in recent years so are considered neo-liberals by the current Labour party and hated accordingly) but are probably the only ones over 35 there who do. Most people are Conservative voters.

The pub was agog at the prospect of Boris Johnson as Prime Minister (they don't reckon that Hunt has a chance because he is a "traitor" - i.e. hasn't supported a no-deal Brexit from day 1) and think that he'll be able to get the "unicorns and rainbows" Brexit deal that we've been promised.

If not, they are confident that a no-deal Brexit will be no big deal. The locals are confident that the agricultural subsidies they rely on will increase post-Brexit and the incomers (largely retired senior managers or directors of large companies) reckon that as soon as Brexit is achieved, countries will come begging to the UK for new trade deals - including the EU who will finally come to their senses.

They're happy that the "immigrant problem" will finally be dealt with, though the only immigrants locally are Mrs Don who was from the US originally and a Danish midwife who has been in the UK since she came to start her nurses training 35 years ago, and that as a result locals will have affordable places to live (whilst at the same time incomers' property prices will be maintained and no new properties will have to be built - no, I don't know how that will happen either). All in all they are looking forward to a no-deal Brexit.

Interestingly, one band member who is a dyed in the wool Conservative (though interestingly went to the same school as Jeremy Corbyn) has always insisted that he was a reluctant Remain supporter. Last night he was emboldened enough to state that he had voted Leave not because he wanted to Leave particularly but because of the very poor quality of the Remain campaign. If this is true, it means that after 3 years of lying about voting Leave he is coming clean. If not true then it seems that he, like so many Conservative MPs has jumped ship and changed his position.

The incomers are fine, they are rich enough to be insulated from the worst effects of Brexit (though their children and grandchildren may not) as as retirees, they can afford to pull the ladder up after them. The locals may have a harder time.

 

[Pixel42]

A remark I overheard yesterday from someone who I'm pretty sure voted Leave was that, as no country has left the EU before, no-one knows what the consequences will be. The implication seemed to be that the "doom mongering" can therefore be ignored.

I'm increasingly starting to think we should leave without a deal, just so that people like that get to find out what the consequences of voting to destroy your country's economy out of wilful ignorance and blind prejudice actually are.

 

[The Don]

I'm increasingly starting to think we should leave without a deal, just so that people like that get to find out what the consequences of voting to destroy your country's economy out of wilful ignorance and blind prejudice actually are.

I don't, not least because I too will suffer the economic consequences from Brexit.

Those who have voted for Brexit and who support a no-deal IMO will literally never find out the consequences of their choice because they will blame any or all negative consequences on the EU, Remainers, previous incumbents or indeed simply ignore any negative consequences and claim that they either didn't happen or would have been far worse had we still been in the EU

 

[Dave Rogers]

Those who have voted for Brexit and who support a no-deal IMO will literally never find out the consequences of their choice because they will blame any or all negative consequences on the EU, Remainers, previous incumbents or indeed simply ignore any negative consequences and claim that they either didn't happen or would have been far worse had we still been in the EU

... and will mostly be dead by the time the worst of those consequences come into effect. Let's not forget that, for the most part, this is a generation ******** on its children and grandchildren in the knowledge that they won't be around to face the music.

Dave

 

[The Don]

... and will mostly be dead by the time the worst of those consequences come into effect. Let's not forget that, for the most part, this is a generation ******** on its children and grandchildren in the knowledge that they won't be around to face the music.

Dave

True. A band mate who was, until his retirement a couple of years ago, MD of a UK-based but globally selling bridge manufacturing company has pointed out that his experience of international trade leads him to anticipate that although there will be considerable short-term pain, the real risk to the UK will be in the long term.

Year on year, GDP growth will be somewhat lower than it would otherwise have been. UK business will have less influence on global standards and as a consequence will find itself increasingly on the outskirts of international trade rather than being influencers at the core which in turn will have an impact on whether investment will come to the UK or elsewhere (the UK's share of the EU's inward investment (that is money from outside the EU into the EU) has taken a sharp fall since the Brexit vote).

There won't be bread riots on day 1 of Brexit (which will cause Brexiteers to call it a triumph ), but the UK will gradually slip out of the top 10,15 or 20 of global economies as other economies outgrow us.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I don't, not least because I too will suffer the economic consequences from Brexit.

Those who have voted for Brexit and who support a no-deal IMO will literally never find out the consequences of their choice because they will blame any or all negative consequences on the EU, Remainers, previous incumbents or indeed simply ignore any negative consequences and claim that they either didn't happen or would have been far worse had we still been in the EU

Likewise, the Brexit vote hit my wife's industry hard eventually leading to her redundancy at the end of last year, she was by far the greater bread winner in the household. I have a small business, two of my biggest regular customers are Polish and German, they've no intention of leaving the UK but I'd be noticeably poorer if they did. And I have a second job selling fine wines to the public, between the income squeeze and uncertainty it's been getting harder every year, this year has been awful so far and as it's commission only and I have to pay my own expenses it can actually end up costing me money. If the currency falls or we introduce tariffs that will be that.

 

[McHrozni]

I'm increasingly starting to think we should leave without a deal, just so that people like that get to find out what the consequences of voting to destroy your country's economy out of wilful ignorance and blind prejudice actually are.

I'm starting to agree and furthermore, it should be BJ steering the ship. Nigel Farage would be my first choice, but since he isn't getting the wheel, BJ will have to do.
Horrible, attrocious, damaging? Yes. It's like chemo for cancer, in all aspects.

The death of UK will serve as a permanent reminder of what happens if you allow populism to run unchecked. It will insulate the West from populistm for a generation or two, like WW2 did.

Bad? Certainly. But the British brought it upon themselves. The rest of us can't help it.

McHrozni

 

[Dave Rogers]

But about a quarter of the British brought it upon themselves and the rest of their country.

FTFY. I voted Remain; I didn't bring this on anybody.

Dave

 

[ceptimus]

If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.

 

[The Don]

Likewise, the Brexit vote hit my wife's industry hard eventually leading to her redundancy at the end of last year, she was by far the greater bread winner in the household. I have a small business, two of my biggest regular customers are Polish and German, they've no intention of leaving the UK but I'd be noticeably poorer if they did. And I have a second job selling fine wines to the public, between the income squeeze and uncertainty it's been getting harder every year, this year has been awful so far and as it's commission only and I have to pay my own expenses it can actually end up costing me money. If the currency falls or we introduce tariffs that will be that.

Sorry to hear this

My business had a positive balance of trade with the EU to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. Any Brexit will hit that very hard, a disorderly Brexit will likely result in the business being wound up. I see this sad pattern repeating across the economy.

On another board I've taken flak from enthusiastic Brexiteers for the business not being able to take this kind of thing in its stride. IMO they're quite bonkers.

 

[Dave Rogers]

If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.

Define "success."

Dave

 

[McHrozni]

FTFY. I voted Remain; I didn't bring this on anybody.

Britain as a country, as a society, has. Not just by the referendum, that was simply the last straw. The society brought it upon itself by being overly tollerant of rampant populism, from populist right in this instance. The same goes for not changing the electoral system into something more modern, not having a written constitution and not holding lying politicians to account.

Not every single individual Brit is guilty of these of course, some did their fair share and fought against the tide, some did the bare minimum and were just outvoted, but far too many were far too tollerant of being told BS day in, day out, for decades on end. It's an emergent aspect that is not shared by all individuals of the society.

Could you as an individual do more? Should you do more? I don't know. That's something you need to ask yourself. Am honest answer in a majority of Brits would be "yes" to both. That's how you the society brought it on yourself, even if you the individual might honestly answer "no" to both. That's what I'm talking about.

McHrozni

 

[GlennB]

If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.

Also, define when this success might be established. 10 or 20 years of repairing the damage followed by 'success' that can't even be measured against what might have been without Brexit?

A hard Brexit might lead to irreparable damage to the B household if we lost reciprocal health care rights. It means irreparable damage to those driven to the closure of their businesses in the interim, and so on.

 

[catsmate]

Brian Cox
‏Verified account
@ProfBrianCox

We are about to see the installation of a scoundrel as PM by a small cabal of ageing xenophobic golf club bores who will crash us out of the EU causing irreparable damage to our country and it can’t be stopped. Think about that. Voters cannot stop Johnson and cannot stop no deal.

Have you read Max Hastings on Johnson?
I was Boris Johnson’s boss: he is utterly unfit to be prime minister

That's Max Hastings the Telegraph editor, though I suppose the Brexiteers will be condemning his as a liberal now.

For 20 years I've known London's mayor is a gold-medal egomaniac. If he gets into No 10, I'm on the first plane out

If the day ever comes that Boris Johnson becomes tenant of Downing Street, I shall be among those packing my bags for a new life in Buenos Aires or suchlike, because it means that Britain has abandoned its last pretensions to be a serious country.

I would not trust him with my wife nor – from painful experience – my wallet.

...it is hard to believe that any man so conspicuously incapable of controlling his own libido is fit to be trusted with controlling the country.

...he is much given to making threats, bearing grudges and behaving with malice aforethought.

Like many showy personalities, he is of weak character.

Johnson would not recognise truth, whether about his private or political life, if confronted by it in an identity parade.

...he is unfit for national office, because it seems he cares for no interest save his own fame and gratification.

 

[catsmate]

I don't, not least because I too will suffer the economic consequences from Brexit.

We've a big garden and can loan you a tent...

Those who have voted for Brexit and who support a no-deal IMO will literally never find out the consequences of their choice because they will blame any or all negative consequences on the EU, Remainers, previous incumbents or indeed simply ignore any negative consequences and claim that they either didn't happen or would have been far worse had we still been in the EU

Ah, the Imperial Delusion. Rather like Trump's support among teh Dumb, Deluded and Desperate, Brexiteers tend to be either insulated for the effects and greedy or too ignorant of reality to comprehend the consequences.

 

[catsmate]

If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.

Lets see your plan.

 

[The Don]

If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.

I'll be delighted and will readily admit that I was completely wrong about Brexit. Of course it depends on how you define success. At the moment, it seems that those who are keen on Brexit are setting the bar pretty low - a lack of complete economic collapse and an absence of bread riots will likely be proclaimed a success.

During the Leave campaign we were promised a smooth transition to the post-Brexit world, economic growth above and beyond what we could expect if we remained in the EU, lots of extra money for the NHS and other important public services and a network of trade deals far superior to those we already have. For Brexit to be a success, I would expect all of this at a bare minimum. My expectations of success are not high.

 

[McHrozni]

Those who have voted for Brexit and who support a no-deal IMO will literally never find out the consequences of their choice because they will blame any or all negative consequences on the EU, Remainers, previous incumbents or indeed simply ignore any negative consequences and claim that they either didn't happen or would have been far worse had we still been in the EU

I think the term here is not "find out", but "accept". You're right that a very large proportion of Brexiteers will never accept they were fooled and led the country into disaster.

Enough will however, they will recognize the loony right is insane and work against them. With any luck they will band together to keep the idiot Brexitards away from anything useful for the foreseeable future. I can tell you this would've happened already, if you had proportionally elected parliament. With direct representation and FPTP you need a tad of luck too. A trainwreck no deal Brexit will help a lot, it will kill the very idea of Brexit. It won't be worth the price and I strongly recommend doing something, anything else, but even the worst-case scenario sees BJ, Nigel and their ilk losing.

They just take everyone else down with them. Joy.

McHrozni

 

[Tolls]

If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.

Oh for...
If it works out, great.
And by that I mean not having the country suffer unduly over the next few years, and not have the country struggle to maintain living standards, and not having the country making shoddy deals in order to make ends meet, and not essentially selling my kids future down the swanny.

I don't want Bresit-types bleating about how it's all going to work out in the end, as the economy slides.

I want this to work out pretty much from the off.
None of Rees-Moggs "we won't see benefits for up to 50 years" ********.

Why do I want that?
Because I don't want to be paying squit diddly for someone else's deranged fantasies. And I don't want my kids having to pick up the tab for morons.

That's Max Hastings the Telegraph editor, though I suppose the Brexiteers will be condemning his as a liberal now.

My favourite bit is:

If the Johnson family had stuck to showbusiness like the Osmonds, Marx Brothers or von Trapp family, the world would be a better place. Yet the Tories, in their terror, have elevated a cavorting charlatan to the steps of Downing Street, and they should expect to pay a full forfeit when voters get the message.