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Trans Women are not Women

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I don't care how many of them there are. If a facility is segregated by sex then it is not the case that everyone is free to choose which facility to use. And if everyone is free to choose which facility to use then the facility is not segregated by sex.

A: "Don't you find it horrible that schools are still racially segregated?"

B: "Erm, schools haven't been racially segregated since the 1960's."

A: "Yes they still are. Look, people of all races are free to choose which school to attend. That means that schools are racially segregated."

B: "Erm, no, that means that schools are not racially segregated."

A: "But thousands of people agree with me. People of all races are free to choose which school to attend, schools are racially segregated. Are you going to disagree with thousands of people?"

B: "..."


"Dogs and other animals are not permitted in the dining area of restaurants."

"Seeing-Eye Dogs assisting people with impaired vision are permitted in the dining area of restaurants."

But... a Seeing-Eye Dog is a dog! It's both permitted and not permitted! Or it's both a dog and not a dog! Someone call a philosopher! Someone call Schroedinger! Reality itself is fracturing apart due to this blatant contradiction!

Your problem with the MA law is you're reading it as definitional. Laws are procedural. It's basically the same "contradiction" as if you read this line of BASIC code:

10 LET X = X + 1

... as if it were a logical contradiction (how could a finite number be one greater than itself?) instead of a procedure.

Nice job using references to segregation as a way to attack a trans rights law, though. Maybe the transphobic Keep MA Safe organization that tried to get the law repealed last year could have tried that approach.
 
"Dogs and other animals are not permitted in the dining area of restaurants."

"Seeing-Eye Dogs assisting people with impaired vision are permitted in the dining area of restaurants."

But... a Seeing-Eye Dog is a dog! It's both permitted and not permitted! Or it's both a dog and not a dog! Someone call a philosopher! Someone call Schroedinger! Reality itself is fracturing apart due to this blatant contradiction!

Well.. yeah, at least sort of. Because that contradiction is what lead to the "Fake therapy dog" problem. Because the difference between "dog" and "seeing eye dog" was not well codified into the law and we just kind of trusted people to game the system and then... they did.

And now we have a group, the Fake Therapy Dog Fandom basically, that is actively fighting codified what is and isn't a proper "service animal" into the law specifically so they can subvert the system.
 
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"Dogs and other animals are not permitted in the dining area of restaurants."

"Seeing-Eye All Dogs assisting people with impaired vision are permitted in the dining area of restaurants."

But... a Seeing-Eye Dog is a dog! It's both permitted and not permitted! Or it's both a dog and not a dog! Someone call a philosopher! Someone call Schroedinger! Reality itself is fracturing apart due to this blatant contradiction!

FTFY. If you don't like the fix, see next paragraph.

Your problem with the MA law is you're reading it as definitional. Laws are procedural. It's basically the same "contradiction" as if you read this line of BASIC code:

10 LET X = X + 1

... as if it were a logical contradiction (how could a finite number be one greater than itself?) instead of a procedure.

Is there a procedure for determining whether someone claiming to have a gender identity is lying? Is there a procedure for determining whether someone claiming their dog is a Seeing-Eye Dog assisting a person with impaired vision is lying? If the answer to the first question is no and the answer to the second question is yes, then I don't see how you have any basis to challenge my ftfy in the previous paragraph.

Nice job using references to segregation as a way to attack a trans rights law, though. Maybe the transphobic Keep MA Safe organization that tried to get the law repealed last year could have tried that approach.

You are the one who brought up references to segregation:
What if we were to pass a law something like this:

An owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent or employee of any place of public accommodation, resort or amusement that lawfully segregates or separates access to such place of public accommodation, or a portion of such place of public accommodation, based on a person’s sex shall grant all persons admission to, and the full enjoyment of, such place of public accommodation or portion thereof consistent with the person’s gender identity.

Would that be a sufficiently uncompromising solution for your taste?

Don't like people talking about segregation? Don't bring it up.
 
Well.. yeah, at least sort of. Because that contradiction is what lead to the "Fake therapy dog" problem. Because the difference between "dog" and "seeing eye dog" was not well codified into the law and we just kind of trusted people to game the system and then... they did.

And now we have a group, the Fake Therapy Dog Fandom basically, that is actively fighting codified what is and isn't a proper "service animal" into the law specifically so they can subvert the system.

Patron: "I identify as visually impaired and I identify my dog as a Seeing-Eye dog, so you must let my dog in."

Waiter: "Sir, your eye-sight is obviously fine and the dog is just a random dog, you don't even have it on a leash."

Patron: "Look, I just identified to you as visually impaired and my dog as a Seeing-Eye dog. Now may I please see the menu and order?"

Waiter: "The menu has really fine print, won't you have a problem reading it if you are visually impaired?"

Patron: "No that won't be a problem at all."

Waiter to manager: "Can't we challenge this?"

Manager: "No. You'd think there's some legal basis for challenging his claims, but turns out there isn't. Neither obvious observations by others that his eye-sight is perfectly fine nor even doctor's tests showing the same thing. There's just no way to challenge it."
 
I don't care how many of them there are. If a facility is segregated by sex then it is not the case that everyone is free to choose which facility to use. And if everyone is free to choose which facility to use then the facility is not segregated by sex.
The rule is that it is segregated by sex.

In practice, this is primarily enforced by the honor system and peer pressure.

This is actually, much like service animals (since this has been brought up):
Q7. What questions can a covered entity's employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?

A. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
 
Well.. yeah, at least sort of. Because that contradiction is what lead to the "Fake therapy dog" problem. Because the difference between "dog" and "seeing eye dog" was not well codified into the law and we just kind of trusted people to game the system and then... they did.

And now we have a group, the Fake Therapy Dog Fandom basically, that is actively fighting codified what is and isn't a proper "service animal" into the law specifically so they can subvert the system.


So? All laws have borderline and ambiguous cases, which people often attempt to test. That's why there are courts and judges and stuff, and why legislatures keep passing new and revised laws. Perhaps, if company policies and/or social feedback doesn't correct the improper usage, supplemental laws will be needed. In the meantime, the blind person (and the epileptic, and the veteran with PTSD) get to eat in the restaurant without the stress of being denied the assistance of their service animals.

Restrooms (and changing rooms, etc., but I'll continue to refer to restrooms as a proxy for all relevant spaces) segregated by sex existed as meaningfully defined facilities in MA law long prior to the trans rights act. In fact, a special exception to state laws that established equal rights for women had to be made to allow them to continue to exist. A restroom segregated by sex is one that has or may have certain characteristics, such as a sign reading "Men" or "Women" or some (possibly whimsical) synonym, and equipment designed primarily for the toilet needs of that sex. One of those characteristics used to be that only people of the designated sex were permitted to use it. The new law changes the effective legal definition of the legal phrase "segregated by sex" to include an exception, that people may also use the segregated restroom designated for the sex that aligns with their gender identity.

So, there are still plenty of restrooms all over the state that are segregated by sex according to the new effective statewide definition of that phrase. (Along with others that have never been, or are no longer, segregated by sex.) They still have signs on them that say things like "Ladies" and "Gentlemen" or "Buoys" and "Gulls" (now that I'd make illegal, if I could!) or triangle-person-icon and rectangle-person-icon. They are now for the use of people of the designated sex or people whose gender identity aligns with the designated sex. People who are not of the designated sex and whose gender identity does not align with the designated sex may not use them. That's how they're segregated.

You might object that the phrase "segregated by sex" no longer accurately reflects its new legal meaning. Now, that situation is not at all unusual in law, and law practitioners generally don't care much. ("Your honor, how can you call it a 'house of ill repute' when it has five stars on Yelp?") But even if it needs to be changed, the law that brings about the change isn't the place to do it, because it must refer correctly to previous laws that used the same phrase. One might as well object to:

This Act renames French Street to Freedom Street.

... as an impossible contradiction because it references the street by a name that no longer applies.

Argumentation from popularity may be a fallacy, but argument from legitimate authority is not. Legislators and Attorneys General and interest groups who are involved in drafting laws are legitimate authorities on how laws are phrased, which is why I mentioned them. Appealing to "some legislators have sometimes passed evil discriminatory laws" as a counterargument to that is a fallacy, though. Though I don't care enough what name that fallacy has to bother looking it up.

Indeed, this whole discussion on this thread is looking increasingly ridiculous, as a lot of hand-wringing about how fundamentally impossible it is to establish trans rights, or how horrible the consequences of doing so must inevitably be, flies in the face of everyday reality in a growing number of U.S. states. Somehow, against all the laws of logic and physics (or the ideological pretenses of same), my wife still uses ladies' rooms at work and at movies and restaurants, I use the mens', transgender people use the ones that best suit their gender identities, or undesignated facilities if they prefer and if they're available, and no one is upset about it. There is a provision in the law for authorities to investigate and prosecute cases of misuse of gender identity claims for improper purposes (so no, it wouldn't be a "hate crime" for them to do so). The number of investigations that have been necessary under that provision so far is zero. One would think the legions of stall-stalking creeps out there could do better.

When a current, progressive, effective, and very widely publicly supported law is attacked as being logically impossible, doomed to failure, and/or comparable to racial segregation laws, because its text includes the words "sex" and "gender" in some ideologically imperfect way, well, thank you for helping me to understand why this seems like such a goddamn insurmountable challenge for everyone else.
 
...my wife still uses ladies' rooms at work and at movies and restaurants, I use the mens', transgender people use the ones that best suit their gender identities, or undesignated facilities if they prefer and if they're available, and no one is upset about it.

Except, lots of people do care, especially where locker rooms and showers are involved. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do.

They also care about boys who break track records in girls' events.

You made a lot of good points about how silly the linguistic quibbling can get. In reality it could all be summed up in the five words of the thread title.
 
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I just had a moment of inspiration.

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/GOkUyDV.jpg[/qimg]

I think I am indigenous. Trans-indigenous. Like Iron Eyes Cody or Liz Warren.

That means that, naturally, there are cis-indigenous people and trans-indigenous. The former have cis privilege and hence I am even more oppressed than they are. Please don't invalidate my identity. Making fun of Liz Warren is a hate crime.

Seems that people with darker skin should not purchase business suits, collared shirts and ties. They should stick to wearing clothes with indigenous designs. /sarcasm.

I wonder if the owner of that sign/shop would consider me to be culturally insensitive if I was to wear a shirt with indigenous design that was given to me by my indigenous daughter. How about displaying a painting with indigenous symbols that she created? Would our raising her to be involved with her indigenous community and proud of her indigenous heritage be sufficient to justify my wearing of one of their shirts.

Taking this further, how does that shop owner determine if a customer is indigenous? Ask to see their status card perhaps? I have attended many indigenous cultural events over the course of my daughters life. At these events I have met people ranging from those who are very obviously indigenous in appearance to those who have no obvious indigenous appearance at all. One of our indigenous foster children has pale skin and red hair. The father who adopted him was a red haired Metis man. Appearances often mean nothing
 
Getting rid of these constructs might "solve" transgenderism. If my ass-pulled theory is correct, and gender [dysphoria] is a kind of allergic reaction to social constructs around gender, then abolishing those constructs may result in transgenderism disappearing from the scene almost entirely.


I am no psychiatrist, but that doesn't seem remotely likely to me based on what they tell us about what it is like to suffer from that condition.


APA said:
  1. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
  2. A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
  3. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender


Even in a utopian future where men and women wear the same outfits and do the same work (e.g. Yar and Worf) the above incongruences and unfulfilled desires would remain.
 
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Taking this further, how does that shop owner determine if a customer is indigenous? Ask to see their status card perhaps? I have attended many indigenous cultural events over the course of my daughters life.

The whole "Cultural Appropriation" thing requires a lot of self appointed gatekeepers able to read the "who can I accuse what of without getting called on it" landscape.
 
I just had a moment of inspiration.

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/GOkUyDV.jpg[/qimg]

I think I am indigenous. Trans-indigenous. Like Iron Eyes Cody or Liz Warren.

That means that, naturally, there are cis-indigenous people and trans-indigenous. The former have cis privilege and hence I am even more oppressed than they are. Please don't invalidate my identity. Making fun of Liz Warren is a hate crime.

If they want to be somewhat consistent they should have stopped at indigenous people.
 
Even in a utopian future where men and women wear the same outfits and do the same work (e.g. Yar and Worf) the above incongruences and unfulfilled desires would remain.

I think such a thing may actually make it harder for a trans person. There are currently things that are acceptable for one gender and not the other: dresses for women, beards for men for example. By adopting attire/grooming/ etc. That is acceptable for their identified gender but not their biological associated gender, I think it might mask their dysphoria. Kind of like taking a pain killer. It doesn't actually make the pain go away, it just makes it so the body doesn't notice.

If there is no gendered distinction in appearance it may be harder to suppress the feeling of dysphoria.

I'm not sure how true that is. It's just speculation.
 
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