Trans Women are not Women

[TragicMonkey]

Transsexuals care.

And they get a bathroom. Again, compromises are never perfect. If you have a perfect solution I'm sure we'd all love to read it. My suggestion strikes me as superior to what we have now, and solves some problems at least partway. I find that better than the current state, even though it's not perfect.

Would you like to present a flawless solution? Or are we all required to do nothing until one presents itself?

Predatory men also care.

I don't feel a need to accommodate deliberate bad actors. I don't understand why you think I should.

Your third bathroom is a complete non sequitur, in terms of these problems. And you still don't seem to understand the nature of Rolfe's problem.

Rolfe's problem is she only wants those she considers to be "real" women in the women-only bathroom. My suggestion retains the existence of a woman-only bathroom. What more can she want?

The honor system is upheld and reinforced by social norms and expectations. Rolfe's problem is that removing the norms and expectations undermines the system that she and other women are currently able to depend on to some degree.

My suggestion would remove some of those Rolfe doesn't want from the women-only bathroom. How is that worse than not removing any?

Your third bathroom doesn't undermine the honor system, but it doesn't reinforce it either. So there's that, anyway.

Oh, I didn't realize that in addition to making everyone happy a compromise suggestion had to improve on every aspect of the status quo. If I invent a water-fueled electric car tomorrow we should trash it because it doesn't cure cancer in the passengers!

 

[TragicMonkey]

This is actually kind of fun. You keep finding new ways to phrase the same dismissal of the problem. So I get to keep finding new ways of rebutting your dismissal.

Here's our latest entry:

The whole point of being a transwoman is to make a statement about what sex they are.

You're not compromising on this point, you're just ignoring it.

Perhaps I'm not seeing that as the main problem here. The problem is access to bathrooms, not people's feelings. And no, the whole point of being a transwoman isn't to make a statement. It's to be a transwoman. They don't stop being a trans when they're alone without an audience to see them being women.

 

[Ziggurat]

TM's proposed compromise benefits several groups of people in addition to those who choose to transition. Single dads with young daughters, single moms with young sons, husbands with physically disabled or cognitively declining wives (and vice-versa), people who are read as gender-ambiguous (for any reason), people who object to gendering themselves, anyone likely to be challenged when entering the restroom which matches their sex or gender.

I don't object to it, it's often a good idea. My local YMCA has bathrooms like that. But it's not going to happen in a lot of existing buildings because they don't want to spend the money to retrofit the place.

 

[TomB]

Transsexuals can use the "don't care" bathroom. So can the "men" who Rolfe is afraid are pretending to be women. All bathroom usage is on the honor system, until you institute guards and a method for them to determine "real" sex and check it. So no, my proposal isn't safe against wilfull deception. Neither is the current system, or any other method proposed so far.

As you say, all bathroom usage is already on the honor system. The only way out of the honor system is to issue everyone bathroom passes which they must keep on themselves and prominently display whenever they enter a locker room or bathroom.

If you forget to carry yours, you just have to pee in the hall.

Maybe for safety, we just have a basket of tasers and stun guns you can pick up for protection when you go in. But I guess that could be misused.

 

[p0lka]

That sounds about right for bees. For mammals though, that's not quite right.

Yes, i was going to point out mammals, there's a tendency with mammals where the hierarchy is young to old.

 

[theprestige]

Perhaps I'm not seeing that as the main problem here. The problem is access to bathrooms, not people's feelings.

The entire discussion is about whether to grant access to bathrooms based on feelings.

 

[theprestige]

As you say, all bathroom usage is already on the honor system. The only way out of the honor system is to issue everyone bathroom passes which they must keep on themselves and prominently display whenever they enter a locker room or bathroom.

There is actually another way out of the honor system: Get rid of the social norms and expectations that reinforce it and keep it effective.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The entire discussion is about whether to grant access to bathrooms based on feelings.

Okay. But the feelings "I want to be able to use a bathroom" I'm holding more important than the feelings "I want to use a sex-segregated bathroom of my choice". Is that comprehensible?

True, it's not a perfect solution. My compromise suggestion doesn't make everybody happy, it doesn't improve on every aspect of the current system, and it's not absolutely free to implement. I look forward to hearing the solution that does all three of those things. Anybody?

 

[TomB]

Okay. But the feelings "I want to be able to use a bathroom" I'm holding more important than the feelings "I want to use a sex-segregated bathroom of my choice". Is that comprehensible?

True, it's not a perfect solution. My compromise suggestion doesn't make everybody happy, it doesn't improve on every aspect of the current system, and it's not absolutely free to implement. I look forward to hearing the solution that does all three of those things. Anybody?

There is no solution that one side or the other is not going to consider a total defeat.

I'm starting to think the best solution is to close all the bathrooms and put porta-potties on the lawn. Seems to work at sporting events.

It is actually sort of amazing that outdoor festivals and such are able to get by with banks of shared temporary outhouses with minimal privacy but we can't find an effective solution for indoor spaces.

 

[Ziggurat]

Okay. But the feelings "I want to be able to use a bathroom" I'm holding more important than the feelings "I want to use a sex-segregated bathroom of my choice". Is that comprehensible?

Except the primary conflict is between two groups who BOTH want the second item: to use the sex-segregated bathroom of their choice. Your elevation of the first desire over the second one does nothing to guide any resolution to that conflict.

 

[Ziggurat]

It is actually sort of amazing that outdoor festivals and such are able to get by with banks of shared temporary outhouses with minimal privacy but we can't find an effective solution for indoor spaces.

Portapotties are cheap. Building renovation is expensive.

 

[TomB]

Portapotties are cheap. Building renovation is expensive.

Yes, but the renovation needed to emulate the bank of portapotties is not to build new bathrooms, as Tragic Monkey suggests, but to make the stalls more private and the common area more public. Shouldn't really be that expensive, but it's an idea that's been rejected by at least one of the sides in this thread.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Except the primary conflict is between two groups who BOTH want the second item: to use the sex-segregated bathroom of their choice. Your elevation of the first desire over the second one does nothing to guide any resolution to that conflict.

I consider the problem of having no bathroom at all to be more important than the problem of not getting the bathroom of choice.

 

[Ziggurat]

I consider the problem of having no bathroom at all to be more important than the problem of not getting the bathroom of choice.

Who has no bathroom? Not transwomen. They can use the men's bathroom.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Who has no bathroom? Not transwomen. They can use the men's bathroom.

I think they'd prefer to use my suggested "don't care" third bathroom. It's not the women's bathroom, which would be their preferred ideal choice, but it's not the men's room, which would be a worse choice than the "don't care" bathroom.

 

[The Atheist]

Transsexuals can use the "don't care" bathroom. So can the "men" who Rolfe is afraid are pretending to be women. All bathroom usage is on the honor system, until you institute guards and a method for them to determine "real" sex and check it. So no, my proposal isn't safe against wilfull deception. Neither is the current system, or any other method proposed so far.

I'm sure the TSA could help with that.

 

[d4m10n]

All bathroom usage is on the honor system, until you institute guards and a method for them to determine "real" sex and check it.

I rather doubt Denise Wells would agree that it's just an honor system, even if she was acquitted in the end.

 

[p0lka]

I think they'd prefer to use my suggested "don't care" third bathroom. It's not the women's bathroom, which would be their preferred ideal choice, but it's not the men's room, which would be a worse choice than the "don't care" bathroom.

In the UK, we generally have male, female and disabled public toilets.
The disabled one is unisex, though some people judge you if you use it and don't look disabled.

 

[theprestige]

In the UK, we generally have male, female and disabled public toilets.
The disabled one is unisex, though some people judge you if you use it and don't look disabled.

My opinion on disabled stalls is that anyone can use them, but if there's a queue and you're disabled, you automatically get the disabled stall regardless of how long the queue is.

 

[wasapi]

I have no sympathy for anyone who seeks help to overcome discrimination in order to then exercise that discrimination themselves from the other side. Like freed slaves who become slaveowners. Hell with that. I'm not lifting a finger to help someone storm a barricade so they can reinforce it from the other side.

This. Yes, very much this.