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Trans Women are not Women

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No, because you just used the word "yes" to try - yet fail - to score a cheap point. Your "yes" doesn't tell us that such things actually happen to you.
I wasn't trying to score a cheap point, don't project.

I'm interested in following where the 'yes' logically leads to.

Francesca R asked a (loaded) question and added anecdotes.

I answered yes, then asked a follow on question,

Should I treat all women as a threat?

Because Francesca R seemed to be treating all men as a threat.


nothing wrong with testing the premises.

don't get your knickers in a twist.
 
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Yes. Mostly claiming it is not correlated with trans identification.

I'd have to review the thread. I don't recall anyone saying that autogynophelia does not exist. There HAS been some debate as to it's role in trans identification, granted, but I recall it being more about prevalence,whether cause or effect, and the various hypotheses could actually be tested.

As for "toxic" males cheering trans access to bathrooms...huh?

Those are guys that trans-women have to watch out for as a mistake in the dating world could result in injury or death. They aren't cheering them at all. they consider them freaks.
 
I suppose we could try to isolate (innate) psychological traits from the other two, but that seems a fool's errand. ;)

I think the point Ron's making - and I agree with - there is only biological gender and psychology is irrelevant. Women have babies; men make sperm.

Which was the entire point of this thread.

Trans women are quite welcome to be as girly as they want, but they can't be biological women. Once we can transplant bodies onto heads, I suppose we'll ask the question again.

Maybe the entire trans movement would be better off to embrace their differences rather than insist on being something they are not? I can see "I'm a trans woman and proud of it" being better received than screeching that you're actually a woman and that biological women must use the prefix "cis" and that everyone who disagrees with that is a TERF or transphobe.

Black people can't become white; cerebral palsy sufferers can't rid themselves of their disability; epileptics may be barred from driving; short people can't see at concerts.

It's a tough old world.
 
Maybe the entire trans movement would be better off to embrace their differences rather than insist on being something they are not? I can see "I'm a trans woman and proud of it" being better received than screeching that you're actually a woman and that biological women must use the prefix "cis" and that everyone who disagrees with that is a TERF or transphobe.

The only problem I can see with this solution is that the whole point of gender disphoria is that the sufferer *cannot* embrace their difference. It is exactly the pain of knowing their difference that they are trying to assuage. You don't tell a schizophrenic to just embrace the paranoia and the irrational voices. The whole problem with schizophrenia is that the voices have a force that cannot be reasoned with or resisted.

I've embraced pretty much all aspects of my sexuality, which is a lot more complex and nuanced than I was led to expect, growing up. I've learned a lot about myself over the years, and I'm okay with pretty much all of it.

But if I had a deep psychological horror of the knowledge of my own penis? I don't think that's something embraceable. I'm pretty sure that's a psychological problem that needs to be treated as such. You don't tell someone who suffers from Munchausen by Proxy, "just embrace it! And also stop making other people sick."

A person who suffers from suicidal depression can certainly say, "I'm suicidal, and that's okay." But they're still suicidal. It's not actually okay. It's something they still have to suffer through, and fight against, every hour of every day. They don't need validation, or tolerance, or whatever. They need treatment.

Transgenderism is problematic is largely because, unlike homosexuality (for example), it's not a question of embracing an alternative lifestyle without shame or fear. Transgenders don't want an alternative lifestyle. They want the mainstream lifestyle that society attributes to the gender they're not. And that's problematic because the mainstream lifestyle doesn't really have room for transpeople. Not without deconstructing the mainstream lifestyle, anyway.
 
I think the point Ron's making - and I agree with - there is only biological gender and psychology is irrelevant. Women have babies; men make sperm.

Which was the entire point of this thread.


There's a word that means "biological gender" and it might be quite handy to use it to avoid ambiguity. Also saves three characters on twitter.
 
But if I had a deep psychological horror of the knowledge of my own penis? I don't think that's something embraceable. I'm pretty sure that's a psychological problem that needs to be treated as such.


And if that was the only class of trans-identifying man there was, then there probably wouldn't be much of a problem really. It's the ones who are really keen on their "lady dick" and want the right to wave it around in single-sex spaces who are the problem. The ones who wouldn't have sex reassigment surgery if you told them it was going to turn them into a cross between Cleopatra and Helen of Troy.

The ones who say "I have a woman's soul so I am a woman so this body is a woman's body and I demand you treat me accordingly."
 
At least you don't get banned from ISF for pointing out that this is an actual mental illness. Twitter, not so much.
 
The only problem I can see with this solution is that the whole point of gender disphoria is that the sufferer *cannot* embrace their difference.

Like I said, it's a old tough world.

It is exactly the pain of knowing their difference that they are trying to assuage.

That is entirely cultural, as far as I can tell. If our culture embraced trans women as Samoa embraces fa'afafine, that problem wouldn't exist. It certainly doesn't in Samoa. I've known a lot of fa'afafine and not one of them wanted their dick cut off. They were what they were.

You don't tell a schizophrenic to just embrace the paranoia and the irrational voices. The whole problem with schizophrenia is that the voices have a force that cannot be reasoned with or resisted.

You're comparing a psychological issue with a psychiatric illness. Schizophrenia has more in common with cancer than trans issues.

But if I had a deep psychological horror of the knowledge of my own penis? I don't think that's something embraceable. I'm pretty sure that's a psychological problem that needs to be treated as such.

I've asked many people how wanting your dick cut off differs from wanting your leg cut off, which some people do to the extent that they self-amputate. Nobody's managed to tell me so far.

As you say, that's a psychological issue and it seems to me like something best served by some deep and meaningful CBT.

You don't tell someone who suffers from Munchausen by Proxy, "just embrace it! And also stop making other people sick."

Again, does not apply. Trans women aren't hurting anyone, and it's not an illness. Embrace it.

A person who suffers from suicidal depression can certainly say, "I'm suicidal, and that's okay." But they're still suicidal. It's not actually okay. It's something they still have to suffer through, and fight against, every hour of every day. They don't need validation, or tolerance, or whatever. They need treatment.

You could probably stop comparing transgender issues to actual diseases about now. A hit though, on trans suicide, which I'm told is higher than some other groups.

Transgenderism is problematic is largely because, unlike homosexuality (for example), it's not a question of embracing an alternative lifestyle without shame or fear. Transgenders don't want an alternative lifestyle. They want the mainstream lifestyle that society attributes to the gender they're not. And that's problematic because the mainstream lifestyle doesn't really have room for transpeople. Not without deconstructing the mainstream lifestyle, anyway.

See above re: harsh old world.

There's a word that means "biological gender" and it might be quite handy to use it to avoid ambiguity. Also saves three characters on twitter.

I'm sick of that, too.

There is no ambiguity, unless you try to think it's ambiguous, and the idea that "gender" means one thing while "sex" means another, is bunkum. There are two: male and female, plus a mutation allowing intersex people to exist.

I had an argument here some years back about whether they were "transgender" or "transexual". Americans and Poms prefer transgender, Kiwi and fa'afafine prefer transexual.

A funny thing just occurred to me: I've never heard a single Kiwi woman complain about a fa'afafine using their toilets, despite most of them being somewhat bigger than me. (6'2" & 200 lb) In cases where women I've been with have used a bathroom simultaneously with a fa'afafine, they've found it companionable rather than confrontational.
 
And if that was the only class of trans-identifying man there was, then there probably wouldn't be much of a problem really. It's the ones who are really keen on their "lady dick" and want the right to wave it around in single-sex spaces who are the problem. The ones who wouldn't have sex reassigment surgery if you told them it was going to turn them into a cross between Cleopatra and Helen of Troy.

The ones who say "I have a woman's soul so I am a woman so this body is a woman's body and I demand you treat me accordingly."
Why don't you mention the trans-identifying woman?

You know, some of them might be really keen on their "manly clit" and want the right to wave it around in single-sex spaces too.
 
RE: the highlighted that's personal to you methinks, doesn't seem to be a common occurrence . Sorry if it has happened, it shouldn't happen, it is kind of an anecdote though.
When I was younger I was routinely hassled, drew stalkers when I was out running and always had an escape plan if I needed to shake off followers. I don't think my experience was that unusual. I don't have stats though.
 
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Because men have always covered each other's butts. If they cover a woman's with anything at all, it's only a skimpy transparent bikini.

theprestige objected to this comment as sexist, but I want to object to it on slightly different terms, namely inaccuracy. Advocacy for transgender rights to enter female-only spaces is not limited to men, plenty of women advocate for it. Nor is opposition to it limited to women, plenty of men object to it as well. It also gives short shrift to all the fathers who do so much to protect their daughters.
 
theprestige objected to this comment as sexist, but I want to object to it on slightly different terms, namely inaccuracy. Advocacy for transgender rights to enter female-only spaces is not limited to men, plenty of women advocate for it. Nor is opposition to it limited to women, plenty of men object to it as well. It also gives short shrift to all the fathers who do so much to protect their daughters.
Thus my objection. The issue crosses sex boundaries, but DL has chosen to make it about her sexist stereotype.

The inaccuracies are, in my opinion, symptoms of the sexism.
 
Going back to some earlier discussion regarding transitioning kids, and the problems and dangers involved with that, I've been reading a bit about Desmond Napoles, a prepubescent "drag kid" who has become a minor celebrity. And it's disturbing. While Desmond may not be technically transgender, there seems to be a lot of similar dynamics at play.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/06/desmond-napoles-gender-identity-ideology/
One of the things that jumped out at me, although it was only mentioned in passing in the article, is that Desmond has been diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum. The article doesn't explore the significance of that diagnosis, but I wasn't surprised by it because I think it's directly linked to the dysfunction going on.

I mentioned in a previous post how I think autism can lead to false diagnoses of transgenderism in children and teens, because the lack of social skills can lead them to try radical self-reinvention in search of acceptance, and I can't help but believe that's going on here too. And if I'm right, then this child's life is basically being destroyed for an audience. And it won't be just him, either. Other kids will end up getting screwed over too, like a massive version of the David Reimer experiments. Androgen blockers do not simply give children time to figure out what they really want. Aside from possible long-term harm to health from taking androgen blockers, the process of puberty itself can often resolve whatever confusion the child may have about their identity. Even among boys who are raised as girls because everyone actually thinks they are biologically female, puberty can switch that perception completely.
 
I'm just gonna leave a gentle reminder that there's a big difference between Gender and Gender Roles. Only the later is a construct of human culture.

If the "behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex" is not a social construct then how come it differs across cultures? Do you have some evidence that all cultures typically associate the same "behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits" with one sex? Please enlighten us with such cross-cultural study showing what you claim it should show.
 
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Thus my objection. The issue crosses sex boundaries, but DL has chosen to make it about her sexist stereotype.

The inaccuracies are, in my opinion, symptoms of the sexism.

Quite likely, but I want to focus less on motives and more on the factual inaccuracy since discussion can be more dispassionate that way.
 
Why don't you mention the trans-identifying woman?

You know, some of them might be really keen on their "manly clit" and want the right to wave it around in single-sex spaces too.

The FtM trans my daughter is besties with had problems in the male-only changing and bathroom areas at school by being bullied for not taking his clothes off in front of the others.

He managed to get by and is engaged to a gorgeous young woman. He did have complete parental support, which is probably the difference between him and many others.
 
If the "behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex" is not a social construct then how come it differs across cultures?

They don't all differ across cultures. Certain differences are cross-cultural, such as in psychological traits like agreeableness or neuroticism.

Do you have some evidence that all cultures typically associate the same "behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits" with one sex?

Whether or not all cultures even recognize the differences, there are plenty of studies which observed them.
 
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