Trans Women are not Women

[ponderingturtle]

Cheers

Sounds reasonable except for middle bit where he purposefully/or mistakenly confuses biological sex with gender identification

Edit: Which I still don't think he should be ditched for

Not at all, he specifically rejects gender as being a thing. No conflating about it he does not believe gender exists. You can't conflate something that exists with something that doesn't.

But this is in no way bigoted like people who reject the idea that sexual orientation exists are in no way homophobic.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You can read those as separate, stand-alone sentences, in which case there is no confusion between biological sex and gender identity.

Again there is no confusion, the whole concept of gender is formally rejected as a thing.

 

[Rolfe]

Sorry

re-reading my post I can see how it was a bit of a mess on my part

3 points he said

1) “impossible for a person to change their biological sex”
2) thinks nobody is “born in the wrong body.”
3) saying it is wrong to "medicalise children who don’t conform to gender stereotypes".

The one I meant was arguable was 2, but didn't warrant erasing from a book

Apologies

OK, I see. Though I don't agree it's arguable that someone can be born in the wrong body. Who else's body can you be born in? What about people born disabled who think they should be able-bodied? What about people born ugly who think they should be beautifu? It's a nonsense concept. Where is the body they should have been born in? In the cupboard? Or has someone else been issued with it?

And be clear, none of this was in his story. The story was apparently entirely uncontentious. BBC Books has dropped the story from the collection because trans activists hit them with complaints that the author should be considered unpublishable due to these opinions, regardless of the content of what is actually proposed for publication.

 

[Puppycow]

It only really makes sense from a dualist POV. You have to assume there is a soul distinct from the body. Or something like a soul.

I believe your body (your brain) is you. There is not really anything else. Of course, you can modify your body to some extent, superficially, but you can't magically alter the fundamental DNA blueprint.

 

[Myriad]

The phrase "the wrong body" doesn't use the word "wrong" in the sense of a wrong telephone number* or the wrong location of a misfiled document or a wrong answer on a quiz. It means unsuited to the person's perceived temperament or self-image. (Likewise, "I bought the wrong car" doesn't mean the vehicle delivered wasn't the one selected and paid for, it means it turned out, on the basis of experience with it, to be unsuited for the owner's needs.)


*"Well, it rang and you answered, so it couldn't have been an entirely wrong number, now, could it?"

 

[ponderingturtle]

It only really makes sense from a dualist POV. You have to assume there is a soul distinct from the body. Or something like a soul.

I believe your body (your brain) is you. There is not really anything else. Of course, you can modify your body to some extent, superficially, but you can't magically alter the fundamental DNA blueprint.

You do realize no one is claiming to alter their DNA right?

 

[d4m10n]

Full statement:

https://medium.com/@zmangareth/statement-on-bbc-books-and-transgenderism-dd7ad0c9231a

I don’t believe in gender identity. It is impossible for a person to change their biological sex. I don’t believe anybody is born in the wrong body.

So far as I can tell, we've yet to discuss testable scientific hypotheses relating to gender identity and the question of whether we can actually tell male brains from female brains (either via resonance imaging or post-mortem). I'm completely unsure whether "gender identity" admits of any non-subjective assessment. If there aren't any scientific means to say Gareth is right or wrong, aren't these simply statements of values or opinion at best?

 

[Puppycow]

So far as I can tell, we've yet to discuss testable scientific hypotheses relating to gender identity and the question of whether we can actually tell male brains from female brains (either via resonance imaging or post-mortem). I'm completely unsure whether "gender identity" admits of any non-subjective assessment. If there aren't any scientific means to say Gareth is right or wrong, aren't these simply statements of values or opinion at best?

Yes. "I don’t believe in gender identity" can only be an opinion, not a statement of objective fact. It does basically deny the possibility that transgender people exist.

ETA: Although he didn't use the word "gender critical feminist", his views regarding gender identity as stated appear to be those of a gender critical feminist.

https://real-feminist-history.com/2016/12/25/gender-critical-feminism/

 

[Venom]

Transgender woman who previously competed in the men's division wins women's national title in the 400-meter hurdles at NCAA championship

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-national-title-NCAA-track-championship.html

Doesn't count in my book.

 

[d4m10n]

"I don’t believe in gender identity" can only be an opinion, not a statement of objective fact. It does basically deny the possibility that transgender people exist.

That sounds about right, given that "transgender" is generally defined in terms of gender identity. It also sounds fairly unscientific, given the plethora of papers studying some aspect or another of this psychological phenomenon. I’m having trouble coming up with a definitive paper precisely on point, but I’ve yet to hear anyone with formal training in psychology deny that gender dysphoria is an actual condition. I rather doubt that even our resident gender critical feminists would go so far.

 

[Puppycow]

That sounds about right, given that "transgender" is generally defined in terms of gender identity. It also sounds fairly unscientific, given the plethora of papers studying some aspect or another of this psychological phenomenon. I’m having trouble coming up with a definitive paper precisely on point, but I’ve yet to hear anyone with formal training in psychology deny that gender dysphoria is an actual condition. I rather doubt that even our resident gender critical feminists would go so far.

I think a gender critical feminist might concede that gender dysphoria exists, but they would probably argue that it is a kind of delusion.

We shouldn’t fight for “gender equality”. We should fight to abolish gender

Our endorsement of the concept of gender lends itself to the creation of gender roles; personality types based on traits that are “masculine” or “feminine”. The effects of such limited categorisation are rapidly being realised – for instance, the effect of rigid gender roles on the wellbeing and physical health of men and women is well documented. Similarly, sexism, homophobia and body dysmorphia all result from these insidious attitudes about what makes an “ideal” man or woman.

To me, the idea that you can jettison the whole concept of gender altogether in a species with 2 sexes is far-fetched.

I am old enough to remember a time when the word "gender" wasn't so widely used as it is today. "Transgender" used to be "transsexual" for example. Forms would ask you to check a box for "sex" rather than "gender".

I've also heard that gender critical feminists prefer so-called "second wave feminism" to "third wave". Things were more binary back then. Second wave feminism generally considered women and men in terms of the two biological sexes, and there wasn't much discussion of other genders or "non-binary" people or transgender people in second wave feminism.

 

[cullennz]

We shouldn’t fight for “gender equality”. We should fight to abolish gender

That has to one of the biggest loads of utter ********* ***** I have read in a long time.

I want the 1 minute of my life reading it back

 

[d4m10n]

I think a gender critical feminist might concede that gender dysphoria exists, but they would probably argue that it is a kind of delusion.

Right, but a delusion about what exactly?

 

[Puppycow]

Right, but a delusion about what exactly?

Well, you know. That there is a thing called gender and that their gender doesn't match the body they were born with (or "assigned").

As you mentioned earlier, none of this seems to be testable using scientific methods. You either take people at their word, or you don't. Isn't that what it all comes down to?

 

[Puppycow]

Sort of a funny complaint:

Women Aren’t The Only People Who Get Abortions

Although Gutiérrez went to Planned Parenthood, they were constantly misgendered and there was no option for preferred pronouns or name on the intake form.

“I got called ‘Miss’ and ‘Ma’am’ all the time,” they said. “And [the staff] was super sweet to me, but I was too terrified to really sit down and have a conversation and say, ‘Hey, my pronouns are this and my identity is this, could you stop doing that?’ I was too busy going, ‘Holy ****, I’m in a clinic and I don’t know what to expect.’”

That experience left Gutiérrez feeling violated, shameful and, later, angry. “I feel like I always have to justify my existence and explain why I need to be treated like a human being,” they said.

 

[Rolfe]

You have ovaries and a uterus and you've used them to get pregnant, and you feel violated because someone has called you "Ma'am"?

That's some top-class delusion right there.

 

[8enotto]

Going against biology and social norms takes strong will. As demonstrated in this insignificant thread on some obscure forum not all will agree, not everyone wants to even bother petting your " feels " and then the ugly bald logic approach.

A bloke in a dress is not a woman. Still a bloke but dressed funny.
Society will never be fully swayed to an " anything goes " mode and still function well.


Ultimately those who wish to deviate from norms will get tied into the long list of letters starting with LGBQ or something. And strength in numbers also means you inadvertently support others with ideas you personally cannot support.
This also causes slow migrations to friendly places like Mex City and San Fran where larger numbers are safety, not Backwater, Montana where attitudes are quite different.

Sometimes it's a high price to pay for feelz.

 

[theprestige]

Going against biology and social norms takes strong will.

In English, "strong will" typically has positive connotations.

 

[Francesca R]

Whenever i go out, women stare at me.

Does it cause you to tense up inside when you realise they are women? Do you do an instinctive probability calculation about whether they have been following you or not? Do you cross the street? Or have a mini-panic if you've left it too late to do that because now it would be obvious why you were crossing the street and might goad them on and/or make them follow you? Do you suddenly feel excessively conscious of how you are dressed even though you are dressed completely normally? Are you sickened when they look you up and down and snigger at each other clearly saying something about you? Do you lower your head and walk quickly past them? Does one of them say to another: "Yeah I'd hold a knife to that!" as you pass, knowing full well you can hear and intended for you to hear?

And does it make you reconsider your route the next time you go out?

 

[8enotto]

In English, "strong will" typically has positive connotations.

Yes, strong will usually means a positive trait in a person. But it can also be misguided into extremist areas.