Mueller Investigation pt 6

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Meadmaker said:
Y'all need to step outside your echo chamber.

Trump is not going to be convicted on anything in the Mueller report, either by the Senate, or by a jury after he leaves office.

I am less confident of the political ramifications, but I think if the Dems pursue impeachment it will be unpopular politically.

(Barring new revelations.)

Feel free to say I told you so if I turn out to be wrong, but until then, I have nothing more to say on the subject.
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Yep Nixon was right it is legal when the president does it.

Like torture is legal when the president orders it.
 
Ziggurat said:
And the report explicitly refused to conclude that a crime had occurred. There's no "No" involved. You should have said "Yes", because what I said is true.
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No. You're wrong. Unless, of course, you can quote the part of the report that says "we refuse to conclude that a crime has occured". That would be "explicit".

Yes, but that doesn't contradict what I said.
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Of course it does.
 
Meadmaker said:
Trump is not going to be convicted on anything in the Mueller report, either by the Senate, or by a jury after he leaves office.
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I'm not saying the Senate would remove him from office. What I want to know is why you think an informed jury would not convict, given the evidence outlined in the Mueller report.
 
Belz... said:
No. You're wrong. Unless, of course, you can quote the part of the report that says "we refuse to conclude that a crime has occured". That would be "explicit".
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From pages 213-214 of the report, from section 2 regarding obstruction of justice:

First, a traditional prosecution or declination decision entails a binary determination to initiate or decline a prosecution, but we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment.
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Third, we considered whether to evaluate the conduct we investigated under the Justice Manual standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes."
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Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.​
(italics original, hilights mine)

Mueller is explicitly stating multiple times that he refused to conclude that the President committed a crime.

Of course it does.
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No, Belz, it does not. Again, explicitly so.
 
Ziggurat said:
From pages 213-214 of the report, from section 2 regarding obstruction of justice:

First, a traditional prosecution or declination decision entails a binary determination to initiate or decline a prosecution, but we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment.
...
Third, we considered whether to evaluate the conduct we investigated under the Justice Manual standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes."
...
Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.​
(italics original, hilights mine)

Mueller is explicitly stating multiple times that he refused to conclude that the President committed a crime.
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None of that supports your claim. They are not refusing to do anything. What you stated is your interpretation, not any explicit statement from Mueller or his report.
 
Ziggurat said:
But what he could do is state that a crime occurred. And he explicitly refused to do so.
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He refused to do so not because no crime occurred, but because, as he said, it wouldn't be fair to do so given that the accused would have no opportunity for a fair rebuttal because charges could not be brought because the accused is a sitting President.
 
Belz... said:
None of that supports your claim. They are not refusing to do anything. What you stated is your interpretation, not any explicit statement from Mueller or his report.
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That is a refusal, and explicitly so. The fact that he didn't use the word "refuse" doesn't make it not a refusal.
 
Paul2 said:
He refused to do so not because no crime occurred
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I made no claims about his motivation, nor did I say that no crime occurred. But because of that refusal, regardless of the motivation, the report contains no claims that a crime did occur.
 
Ziggurat said:
I made no claims about his motivation, nor did I say that no crime occurred. But because of that refusal, regardless of the motivation, the report contains no claims that a crime did occur.
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I'm not sure what your point was then, beyond merely reporting what Mueller concluded. The crucial point is that the Mueller report, the sections that lay out the facts, shows that Trump committed the crime of obstruction of justice, and anything else he said - to not make a determination, to refuse to exonerate him, etc., is consistent with that crucial point. That Mueller refuses to come right out and say it does not contradict him showing it, by reporting Trump's behavior and by showing how it fit all the requirements for obstruction, in at least 4 cases.
 
Ziggurat said:
That's the PDF page number. The PDF has more than 400 pages and contains both volumes.
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Of all the citation methods, you pick the one specific to a file you have instead of the one they use internally to the document?

In retrospect, I probably should have expected that...
 
Paul2 said:
The crucial point is that the Mueller report, the sections that lay out the facts, shows that Trump committed the crime of obstruction of justice
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Some people interpret it that way, but that's not a universally shared interpretation, it's not an interpretation the report itself makes, and it's far from the only reasonable interpretation of those facts.
 
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