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Trans Women are not Women

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I am supposing you like the idea of being one of the lesbians. For a moment at least.

I can't prove it and your word should carry a lot more weight than mine. So contradict away.

It's not a matter of contradicting you. It's a matter of figuring out where the hell your assumptions are coming from.

"Is briefly amused by the idea of being a lesbian trapped in a man's body" seems to be a pretty useless definition of autogynephilia.
 
Yeah I don't think the mainstream attraction of lesbianism to hetero males is amusement only.

Also it would be autogynaephilia at the low end of the scale.

I believe that anyway. FWIW
 
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Many heterosexual females find gay male porn very arousing. Just look at the popularity of slash fiction. I don't think it's the same thing. I think it's the undiluted masculinity of it, and the absence of another female who may be seen either as a rival or as someone to compare onself with, unfavourably.
 
Yeah I don't think the mainstream attraction of lesbianism to hetero males is amusement only.

Also it would be autogynaephilia at the low end of the scale.

I believe that anyway. FWIW

Or: Men train themselves to derive psychological pleasure from observing a woman's pleasure so they can otherwise hold off the, without due caution, nearly immediately inevitable. Also a matter of score-keeping for the sporting to measure prowess, a sad male trait women have learned to counter with the art of faking, others to take exquisite and complete advantage of. An advanced discipline born of self-control, self-discipline, intense concentration and for males, say, learning to count the number of square angles in a room whilst remaining in the game. A learned behavior? Innate trait? Freudian slip? Or just... considerate and polite.

TLDR: Sex is fun.


ETA: Ripley's believe it or not: Hlaf was young at some point, back a ways.

***
Eyeing the thread title, to be on topic:
Physical gender is physical.
Psychological gender is of the mind.
The rest is complicated and I just want everybody to have orgasms with whoever gets them off, make any physical changes to make genders match they like, dress as they like, and just kindly tip me off if any "equipment" might surprise the unsuspecting or unwary. I don't need new nightmares.
Anybody who loves kids in a caring way can raise and take care of kids.
Make all marriages, adoptions, and divorces equal without assuming who is a natural provider, caregiver, or servant.
 
How come no one is mentioning female to men transitions,

aren't men in the same situation regarding female to male people that are sharing our bathrooms as women are in regards to male to female sharing our bathrooms?

for example, Buck angel,

http://www.graphis.com/media/upload...-ba43-c1d422cf58fc/Angel-Final-8x10300_1.jpeg

Oh no, that would be terrible if they came into our bathroom...not.
Couldn't give a **** to be honest,

Females, stop your drama, it's not good to be a stereotype.
 
Buck Angel recently peak-transed although she's trying to pretend she hasn't really. It's been fun to watch.

But this isn't a symmetrical situation, and it's no use pretending it is.
 
Buck Angel recently peak-transed although she's trying to pretend she hasn't really. It's been fun to watch.

But this isn't a symmetrical situation, and it's no use pretending it is.
Why isn't it a symmetrical situation?

'pretend' women go into women bathrooms,
'pretend' men go into mens bathrooms,

seems pretty symmetrical to me?

please dont do the special pleading sort of thing, just because ItS A wOmAn!
wouldn't be cool.
 
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I am supposing you like the idea of being one of the lesbians. For a moment at least.

I can't prove it and your word should carry a lot more weight than mine. So contradict away.

I have to go back a few decades to a point where I might have thought that sort of joke was funny, but if I can recall those golden days of junior high school, it was really more of a snide, anti-gay, slur. It's a way of expressing solidarity with gay people in an absurdist fashion, as a way of mocking gays.

In other words, "Not only do I have gay friends, I myself am a lesbian, just trapped in a male body."
 
Why isn't it a symmetrical situation?



Because women are smaller, and can be raped, and can be made pregnant by being raped, and because hundreds of thousands of years of evolution have conspired to make them behave differently than men, and because a lot of our social customs are actually adaptations of instinctive behavior shoe-horned into a technological society.


Female chimpanzees do not act like male chimpanzees. Why should female humans act like male humans? There's not that much difference.
 
...using colon tissue to achieve the penetrative length that can't be achieved from the material available from an infantile penis and scrotum.


That's....how do these people sleep at night? Seriously. People call us hateful when we refuse to call men, women. Meanwhile, they're slicing up kids in this way.

But all this celebration of the "brave and stunning" trans person, the coming-out parties,

And people will insist that all of this has absolutely no influence on a fifteen year old kid's choice of gender. Andraya Yearwood is named "athlete of the year" in Connecticut, an honor "she" could never have achieved when "he" was running track last year as a male, but of course that has no bearing at all on her. How do these kids remain immune from the sort of influences that are so significant to other teenagers?

(I previously had said Terry Miller. Terry Miller was the other transgirl who came in second, behind Andraya Yearwood.)
 
Because women are smaller, and can be raped, and can be made pregnant by being raped, and because hundreds of thousands of years of evolution have conspired to make them behave differently than men, and because a lot of our social customs are actually adaptations of instinctive behavior shoe-horned into a technological society.


Female chimpanzees do not act like male chimpanzees. Why should female humans act like male humans? There's not that much difference.
You should have quoted everything I said if you were going to reply to it.


Why isn't it a symmetrical situation?

'pretend' women go into women bathrooms,
'pretend' men go into mens bathrooms,

seems pretty symmetrical to me?

please dont do the special pleading sort of thing, just because ItS A wOmAn!
wouldn't be cool.

You went straight to the stereotype, shame on you.

I'm smaller than a lot of females I know,

I can be raped but not get pregnant obviously,
what's that got to do with it?

Rape is rape,
where are you getting extra points because pregnancy can happen?
shame on you.

EDIT: the 'shame on you' is me just being a bit facetious, sorry, but my point still stands.
 
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You should have quoted everything I said if you were going to reply to it.




You went straight to the stereotype, shame on you.

I'm smaller than a lot of females I know,

I can be raped but not get pregnant obviously,
what's that got to do with it?

Rape is rape,
where are you getting extra points because pregnancy can happen?
shame on you.

We are a sexually dimorphic species. This extends to behavior. The relationships between the two sexes are not symmetric, because men and women are different.

Meanwhile, you are doing exactly, indeed specifically, what Rolfe called out earlier today, saying that men can get raped and blah, blah, blah. Technically, you are right*, but it's absurd not to recognize the asymmetry between the sexes.


As for the "extra points for pregnancy", specifically, surely you would agree that the consequences of the action should be considered significant in evaluating the severity of the action, and that pregnancy is a pretty big consequence. Nay, not just "pretty big", but the biggest thing possible other than, possibly, loss of her own life.



*I speak from personal experience. Yes, I, personally, have been the victim of violent sexual assault, though whether it would be called "rape" varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I'm not dismissing the possibility.
 
We are a sexually dimorphic species. This extends to behavior. The relationships between the two sexes are not symmetric, because men and women are different.

Meanwhile, you are doing exactly, indeed specifically, what Rolfe called out earlier today, saying that men can get raped and blah, blah, blah. Technically, you are right*, but it's absurd not to recognize the asymmetry between the sexes.


As for the "extra points for pregnancy", specifically, surely you would agree that the consequences of the action should be considered significant in evaluating the severity of the action, and that pregnancy is a pretty big consequence. Nay, not just "pretty big", but the biggest thing possible other than, possibly, loss of her own life.
I missed what Rolfe called out earlier today, can you link me.

re: the highlighted What do you mean by 'technically'?


*I speak from personal experience. Yes, I, personally, have been the victim of violent sexual assault, though whether it would be called "rape" varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I'm not dismissing the possibility.
I have posted this here before, or maybe when it was jref,

in 2004 I was the main witness in a court case targeting a gay pedo ring that was around in the 80's, I only agreed to tell them what I experienced if my name was kept out of the papers, as I had a family and didn't want them to know about it, they agreed and the victims names weren't published.

The end result was various scout leaders/teachers etc getting between 3-12 years inside, there were women involved too.
 
That's....how do these people sleep at night? Seriously. People call us hateful when we refuse to call men, women. Meanwhile, they're slicing up kids in this way.


The interviews with Jazz Jennings are frightful. The poor child liked sparkly things and I think wanted a girl's bathing costume when he was little. I imagine there was more to it than that, but essentially he was a wee boy who much preferred girly things. His parents got in with the trans-affirming crowd, the sort of people who say that a baby can communicate it's trans by (if a girl) pulling hair-grips out of her hair or (if a boy) unpopping his romper suit to make it seem like a skirt. (I am not making this up.)

The parents seem to have regarded the kid as a meal ticket. He got his own TV reality show which documented his life as a "transkid" in real time. As he got older he was put on puberty blockers (gonadotrophin releasing hormone inhibitors, the sort of drug used for the "chemical castration" of dangerous rapists and the sort of thing that drove Alan Turing to suicide). This is supposedly to "buy time" to ensure the kid can make up his (or sometimes her) mind before committing to cross-sex hormones.

However, past experience is that the majority of gender-nonconforming children (up to 90% in some studies) will naturally grow out of it when they go through puberty and become happy in their natural bodies (although the boys in particular tend to turn out to be gay). Puberty blockers completely reverse this, with 100% of puberty-blocked children progressing to cross-sex hormones and life as an adult as the opposite sex. See above about the sort of life they're heading for. It seems that denying them their natural puberty denies their brains the maturation process that will cause most of them to desist from the belief that they're the opposite sex.

Also, having parents who are so invested in their "trans kid" - some have said it's a form of Munchhausen by proxy - what are the actual chances of them reverting to their actual sex when the parents are encouraging them to transition? How can a teenage boy actually cope with being a teenage boy if he's been brought up as a girl since he was a toddler? (I read an account by one of these mothers of "supporting" her "daughter" the night before he was due to start the puberty blockers. Even in her own account it was obvious the boy was having second thoughts and wanted to back off, but the smother love he was getting was too much to fight.)

I saw an episode of "I Am Jazz" where Jazz's medical consultation was filmed as part of the show. For God's sake, he was a minor. How is this possibly ethical? Anyway, the trans doctor was asking him about his sexual sensations. He had never felt sexual arousal and didn't know what an orgasm was. A fifteen-year-old boy. They were tracking him towards sex-reassignment surgery but his infantile genitalia had far too little tissue to construct a vulva and vagina. A procedure was suggested whereby the scrotal skin would be stretched by incremental injections of sterile saline or something like that, until Jazz was walking around with a football between his legs. The injections were said to be very painful. Jazz baulked at this, no wonder. I'm not sure what they eventually did, there was some talk of taking a bit of peritoneal tissue to avoid the smell that happens when intestine is used.

There was also the question of weight loss, because Jazz has an eating disorder, is significantly overweight, and the surgeons didn't want to operate until he'd lost several stones. It's a complete psychological nightmare.

Whatever they did, they were fashioning a eunuch into a living sex toy, in my opinion. If you don't go through puberty in your natural sex, you don't experience sexual arousal, and you're sterile. The "neo-vagina" is merely a sheath for someone else to put his penis in. It has no other function. And in order to keep it open for that purpose, the teenager has to learn to "dilate", that is to adhere to a strict daily regime of pushing a dildo into it to keep it from healing up. (Some doctors who do this procedure say it's best to do it before the kid is college-age because the dilation can be supervised at home while college kids might get careless and skip sessions.)

And that's their life, these boys-turned-into-sex-dolls. Synthetic female hormones to mimic a feminine body but they still may want breast augmentation, a couple of footballs on their chest it sometimes looks like. No possibility of children, not even as the father (and certainly not as the mother as they will never produce ova and they don't have a uterus and they'll never even have a period). No sexual sensation, no erectile tissue that could set off an orgasm.

And the problems down the line of bone density loss (I heard that one 20-year-old suffered multiple fractures after a fall recently) and increased risk of stroke, heart attack, high blood pressure and cancer. They stopped giving menopausal women HRT after a huge study showed a fairly modest increase in breast cancer risk. Nobody is even doing follow-up studies on the trans kids.

Jazz seems immature for his age, maybe no wonder, no puberty and the puberty blockers are known to take a few points off the IQ. He sometimes says he's looking for a boyfriend and sometimes that he's a lesbian, I'm not sure where it's at by now.

Now sex reassignment surgery in adult males is an entirely different kettle of fish. Yes there can be problems like the hair in the neo-vagina I mentioned, and a number of men have been mutilated by incompetent surgeons who didn't bother to retain some erectile tissue so that the patient could continue to have orgasms. And there have been other surgical disasters. But fundamentally it can be done successfully. The patient can have a sex life as a woman, and he can store sperm in case he ever wants children and can find a woman to co-operate. This is not the case with the children.

This is all driven by the conviction that the most important thing is "passing". A boy who becomes a eunuch who has never gone through puberty has a much better chance of looking female. His voice won't break and he'll retain a boyish face rather than a man's face. Proponents go on about the critical importance of intervening before puberty ruins the poor "girl's" looks. The rest of it doesn't matter. And besides, trying to support the children into coming to accept their natural bodies is "conversion therapy" and is outlawed.

I think it's child abuse, and I think there are going to be some interesting lawsuits somewhere down the line.

ETA: Here's an article about the organisation that's pushing child transition in schools in Britain. It's run by a woman who took her own son abroad for SRS as a 16th birthday "present". The organisation is providing deeply problematic training and advice to schools, healthcare providers, youth organisations and government bodies. Should Mermaids be permitted to influence UK public policy on 'trans kids'?

Also see this current story.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ear-old-pupils-sex-change-secret-parents.html
https://www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/press-enquiry-from-the-mail-on-sunday-25th-may-2019.html
https://twitter.com/MRKHvoice/status/1132653381141565441
https://www.transgendertrend.com/analysis-mermaids-press-statement/
 
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I wish people would stop trying to fit into categories or under labels to define themselves,
the internet has some things to answer for.

Oh, we all like licking doorknobs! we are a group now and that's how we are going to define ourselves.

doesn't help.
 
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Although I'm on perfectly good terms with my transwoman friend I have never been able to think of him as "she". Of course when we're together I call him "you", so it isn't an issue. I have to police my language if I'm talking about him to other people who might take offence though.

From what I read from you in this thread, I never would have guessed. And does your friend know about your views on this topic? I guess it's not really your obligation to tell them.
 
. . . And, I should have added, since I go out on something of a limb to claim that autogynaephilia is actually fairly mainstream, mostly under the radar, and mostly not what I would call mental illness beause it is mostly not something that need ever cause any manifestation of illness . . . . I should also have added that I am not surprised to witness massive opposition/challenge to the above from trans-women and from plenty of men in general.


(Not that I am trying to create a pass to dismiss opposition, looks a bit like I am though methinks)

I have rethought my earlier statement about Blanchard's theories, and I think I should retract it. I really don't know either way and I don't have the qualifications to pronounce judgment on either the theory itself, or the criticisms of the theory. So I'll just say that it's probably above my own amateur level of understanding, having read a few papers on the internet, but not having a background in clinical psychology. So I'll remain for now agnostic on that particular issue.
 
How come no one is mentioning female to men transitions,

aren't men in the same situation regarding female to male people that are sharing our bathrooms as women are in regards to male to female sharing our bathrooms?

for example, Buck angel,

http://www.graphis.com/media/upload...-ba43-c1d422cf58fc/Angel-Final-8x10300_1.jpeg

Oh no, that would be terrible if they came into our bathroom...not.
Couldn't give a **** to be honest,

Females, stop your drama, it's not good to be a stereotype.

It is mainly because the vast majority of dudes don't give a **** who shares a bog with them
 
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