Trans Women are not Women

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JoeMorgue said:
I'm a hateful bigot no matter what I do, no matter how good I am. Why should I bother?
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Consider it sport.

If you're a white middle class cis-het dude then you're the natural enemy of the left.

You have to ask yourself this....People may say that trans women are women 100 % same-same no difference, but do they actually believe it ?
 
Meadmaker said:
Not that I think Polka's question had a hint of sincerity about it. God only knows what his point was.
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Oh sorry, yeah i wasn't being sincere, i was looking for data.

I was interested in the different reactions between 'baby died, you glad?' versus 'baby died, you sad?'

you glad?
That seems to make people assume you are accusing someone of something.

you sad?
That doesn't seem to make people assume you are accusing someone of something.

The structure is exactly the same though.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Because this doesn't end on the internet. The internet is solidified veins of pure causey stupidity resin, but it's not the only source of it.
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I meant to ask, what is it that you’re bothering to do. “Why should I bother” to...?

JoeMorgue said:
And as I've said a hundred times now if I can't please everyone, the people who expect me to please them need to have a good reason.
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What behavior from you is it that you’re asking these people to have a good reason for?

JoeMorgue said:
Getting the "Bigot" label slapped on you have real world consequences.
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In the real world, sure, or if you were running some kind of blog or service where people would expect you not to go off on why you should be expected to use a person’s preferred name or pronouns. I assure you plenty of normal everyday customer service level folks are throughly uncensored for expressing views all the way up to “oh my god, did you see that guy, what a freak” so it really is a lot like common or garden manners where you just sort of have to know what you can say to whom depending on the situation. There are still plenty of places where one can bitch about being expected to deal with people’s various unconventional gender expressions to one’s heart’s content.

ETA: If where you’re at is “fine with using people’s preferred names and pronouns, while thinking it’s all a bunch of hooey more or less, but not saying so where it’s gonna obviously get back to the people you deal with IRL” I’d say you’re golden. Make peace with the fact that some small number of people will still think you’re being a butt when you express this, because most people either don’t think you’re being a butt or don’t even begin to care either way.
 
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quadraginta said:
And would have been even more accurate had they said, "some of the loudest trans activists can sometimes be bullies"

But I don't think accuracy was the goal.

Demonization was.
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It's also worth pointing out that in that video Ben Shapiro was also acting like a bully. He deliberately provoked that woman by calling her by the wrong gender, and he knew he was doing that.

Now if I were to extrapolate that behavior to reflect on all conservatives or all white men, that would be bigoted. The reality is that obnoxious behavior only reflects the poor character of Ben Shapiro.
 
Stout said:
If you're a white middle class cis-het dude then you're the natural enemy of the left.
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I consider myself to be on the left, and I don't agree with that.

Stout said:
You have to ask yourself this....People may say that trans women are women 100 % same-same no difference, but do they actually believe it ?
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Who says that? I think that's a straw-man.
 
p0lka said:
Oh sorry, yeah i wasn't being sincere, i was looking for data.

I was interested in the different reactions between 'baby died, you glad?' versus 'baby died, you sad?'

you glad?
That seems to make people assume you are accusing someone of something.

you sad?
That doesn't seem to make people assume you are accusing someone of something.

The structure is exactly the same though.
Click to expand...

You really should stop digging.
 
Mycroft said:
It's also worth pointing out that in that video Ben Shapiro was also acting like a bully. He deliberately provoked that woman by calling her by the wrong gender, and he knew he was doing that.

Now if I were to extrapolate that behavior to reflect on all conservatives or all white men, that would be bigoted. The reality is that obnoxious behavior only reflects the poor character of Ben Shapiro.
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He was stating straight facts.

As for bullying. If calling someone "he" when they demand to be "she" is bullying, then the worlds emotions have turned a bit fragile.

No one has the right to demand to be called a certain pronoun

I can't walk around demanding the police call me "Senator" Cullennz, or "The Great High Priest, King, Much Reverend" Cullennz

Shapiro wasn't bullying. He was just being a jerk
 
Mycroft said:
I consider myself to be on the left, and I don't agree with that.
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You may not agree with it but those are the attributes that make you the "oppressor".

Who says that? I think that's a straw-man.
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Just check out the link in post #2130. There is no room here for a third option.
 
Rolfe said:
Canada is even worse. Right now we're trying to avoid becoming Canada.
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In theory. This gender stuff is pretty easy but I'm not seeing much in the way of problems. Sure we may have them but I'm not reading about them in the news.

We do have "JY" though, I'll give you that. Oh and Morgane Oger

Quote from that last link, for Mycroft.

Who is a woman in Canada and British Columbia is not based on their plumbing but on our gender identity. Women are women because we say we are. Attributes usually associated with women are protected for all women, whether they possess them or not, like plumbing or biological function.
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So I actually read that Ogre piece, the one that's supposed to be a disavowal of JY and it looks kind of weird.

People who claim that allegations against Yaniv were public knowledge for years before this post must be deeply frustrated that people who could have helped act were unaware or not listening. I have a simple message for them:

It’s unlikely public figures are the monsters your social media silo tells you they are. There is no cover under the trans umbrella for predators.

We must consider what these allegations sound like from the lens of the community being targeted as a by-product of the violence. After all, lynch mobs are scary things, even online. Perhaps we need to center our fury on the people who prey on transgender women with their alarmist fairy tales that made this incident undetectable from a dominantly hateful narrative?
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Reads more like a defense or an attempt to minimize the whole JY social media storm and redirect the attention to trans women.
 
p0lka said:
Oh sorry, yeah i wasn't being sincere, i was looking for data.

I was interested in the different reactions between 'baby died, you glad?' versus 'baby died, you sad?'

you glad?
That seems to make people assume you are accusing someone of something.

you sad?
That doesn't seem to make people assume you are accusing someone of something.

The structure is exactly the same though.
Click to expand...

Ok. Your question, although of the same form as Archie's, happened after it and so the context is different, and for that reason they aren't easily comparable.

I do think "you sad?" isn't quite as appalling as "you glad". Both of them sort of imply, though, that I might not have a normal human reaction. That's.....well, I'll let someone else follow up on what that implies about the person who asks. (And in this case, context matters.)

In the same post where you asked your "you sad" question, though, you stated that my statements had no meaning. I wish to correct you.

I began by saying that I had dropped the "pseudointellectual crap". I call this talk about men having babies "pseudointellectual" because it has all of the qualities that is associated with another word from academia, which is "sophomoric". It sounds so wonderful. It's full of nice Latin prefixes. It makes everyone talking about it sound erudite and gives them an opportunity to sneer at the commoners who are not as enlightened as they. Unfortunately, it's utter drivel. Saying that a man can have a baby renders the word "man" completely meaningless. Language is useless unless it facilitates communication, but using "man" in that fashion confounds communication instead.


I called it "crap" as a common way of expressing disgust. In this particular instance, the confounding of the communication actually led to tragedy. Most of the time I will play along to some extent, but when discussing dead babies, I just didn't feel like it.


I also said that the patient was a woman. Once again, standing up for the use of language as a means of communication. If we are somehow to drop the idea of "woman" as meaning an adult biological female, what word should we use to describe that class of people? "Adult biological female" is an awful lot to say, but it is a concept that is very useful and significant. If we are to facilitate communication, is there a word we can use to describe that class of humans? I submit that there is such a word in our language, and the word is "woman".


Finally, I said, "Her baby is dead." Now that's just a declarative sentence, of the same form, grammatically, as "My cat is black", and yet, context should indicate that there is something more meaningful about the sentence. Of course, what everyone, I assume including you, actually understood me to mean was that the death of the baby was connected to the "pseudointellectual crap". And of course, that is exactly what I meant.
 
Belz... said:
Conversations with ponderingturtle and TragicMonkey, and others, in the past have shown that we're at that point: you can't even disagree anymore. Fall in line, or be labeled as the enemy.
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JoeMorgue said:
Oh but I most certainly am. It's been screamed at me in this very thread.

Your response will now be something to the effect of "Well you can't please everybody" but that's the point.

I'm a hateful bigot no matter what I do, no matter how good I am. Why should I bother?
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Belz... said:
I have the distinction of being both a left-wing extremist and a right-winger.
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JoeMorgue said:
Because this doesn't end on the internet. The internet is solidified veins of pure causey stupidity resin, but it's not the only source of it.

And as I've said a hundred times now if I can't please everyone, the people who expect me to please them need to have a good reason.

Getting the "Bigot" label slapped on you have real world consequences.
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You all are saying that being labeled something that you don't identify as is causing painful dysphoria.

Maybe people should care about that.
 
No, he's saying that being labelled with a vicious slur can have consequences for people's jobs and suchlike.

People can imagine themselves to be anything they like. Napoleon. Black. Stunningly beautiful. Female. Nobody is under any obligation to behave as if any of these things is literally true, even if not doing so might hurt their feelings. Labelling people with derogatory slanders that might get them sacked is something else. Of course trans activists are very fond of trying to get people who disagree with them sacked, we've noticed.
 
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