Trans Women are not Women

[Meadmaker]

But its worse than that anyway. Apparently about 10% of rapes are female on female.

Your links do not support that assertion.

 

[DragonLady]

This is pretty horrible logic.

But its worse than that anyway. Apparently about 10% of rapes are female on female.

Female prison inmates are more likely to be sexually assaulted than male inmates and they are three times more likely to be assaulted by another female inmate than by a male officer.

In juvenile facilities women are much more likely to commit assaults than men (9 out of 10)

This silly idea that men are predators and women are always helpless victims needs to be stopped.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...y-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/95769958-f129-416c-9610-c8f96504ce77

I read the first page you linked to and formed a very different opinion of what it says, but it's early yet so maybe I need to read it again later. I did note it doesn't say whether the perpetrators are natural females, or transwomen. I think that's an important distinction, but realize it's so very un-PC that it be verboten to even ask.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

But, in an interview for BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, I spoke with Yvonne Traynor - CEO of Rape Crisis - who stated, “Around 10% of perpetrators are women”.

The data doesn't exist apparently so I am not going to claim to have it but the idea that men are predators and women are angels is a fiction.

 

[Rolfe]

In English law rape must involve penetration by a penis. It is actually impossible for a woman to commit rape. So when you see a report in England that a "woman" has been convicted of rape (as opposed to "assault by penertation") then the perpetrator has a penis. Go figure.

 

[Darat]

As far a I'm concerned, if they have functional penises they're all yours. Otherwise, we women take care of our own, however they choose to express themselves.

How would you know they are female if they had what looked like male genitals? Would you want to test them for full "functionality"?

 

[Darat]

I do realise it varies and from what I hear from men in this thread nearly all women are more into at least a token towel and spending as short a period as possible baring all. But I've never come across a woman who behaved modestly in a changing room because she was worried one of the other women might be a lesbian.

In my experience it's all about the bodies. Breasts and hips and no obvious dangly bits, no aversive reaction. Baritone voice, hairy chest and suspicious bulges, not all right.

I do realise it varies and from what I hear from men in this thread nearly all women are more into at least a token towel and spending as short a period as possible baring all. But I've never come across a woman who behaved modestly in a changing room because she was worried one of the other women might be a lesbian.

In my experience it's all about the bodies. Breasts and hips and no, not all right.

But dragonlady said she would be fine with " obvious dangly bits, no aversive reaction. Baritone voice, hairy chest and suspicious bulges"?

 

[d4m10n]

As far a I'm concerned, if they have functional penises they're all yours. Otherwise, we women take care of our own, however they choose to express themselves.

Showers and changing rooms aside, how can you tell men from transmen without using TSA scanners?

 

[The Atheist]

Why do you care so much? Transgender people are like 0,5% of the population in any given country.
If you see that as a problem, that says a lot more about you than it does about them.

You clearly haven't been reading - I don't care about the toilet debate at all and have said exactly that several times.

My post was entirely in response to Cully, who asked where the huge bearded trans women were and the answer is Auckland. I repeat - that doesn't make them bad people and most of them are very nice, caring people. They just look a bit different.

A modest proposal:
https://twitter.com/sikivuhutch/status/748752618344722432

I think that's the most sensible answer.

When you're a bloke, the whole world is a toilet - who needs a bathroom?

 

[Francesca R]

I don't know any women who assess risks to themselves or base personal safety strategies on data gleaned from reported rape or sexual assault. Whether the finding is "Actually you are quite safe" or "Actually the risk is also high / as high / higher / whatever for men as it is for women". This just does not seem to carry any weight.

As for "The assailant is quite likely to be a woman" I don't think that has ever been a feature of any conversation I have had about the subject. (I may not know a representative sample of women I suppose)

The reason IMO for applying a discount factor of almost 100% to such data is that almost all women are fully aware that sexual assault and rape are substantially under-reported crimes, and also crimes for which the detection rate or conviction rate are very low indeed when they are reported. We simply do not say, oh, let's be good sceptics and go on the evidence in reported data.

And another thing which I mentioned before in respect of the internet and social media like this place, it's not very representative of the real world. It is over represented by males with an axe to grind about women. It's a world where women commit most violent crimes, and invent false accusations of men waging violence and sexual assault against them, where men are victims under represented for too long, and women just need a good . . . . yeah.

I exaggerated the last paragraph. It was a rant. Sorry.

 

[Meadmaker]

In English law rape must involve penetration by a penis. It is actually impossible for a woman to commit rape. So when you see a report in England that a "woman" has been convicted of rape (as opposed to "assault by penertation") then the perpetrator has a penis. Go figure.

Actually, not 100 % true, although extremely close. I learned something from Archie's links. If a rape occurs, which must, under English law include penile penetration, all persons who participated in the act can be charged with rape.

Needless to say, females so charged represent nowhere near 10 percent of perpetrators.

 

[The Atheist]

I exaggerated the last paragraph. It was a rant. Sorry.

While semi-joking, as with most good rants, it has nuggets of truth in it.

Men tend to see one piece like this and extrapolate it into all women being untrustworthy predators.

The fact that >90% of male on female rapes never get a conviction doesn't enter the picture.

Then there's this for transphobes to use as evidence that trans are all dangerous too: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cr...r-investigated-for-sexual-assault-behind-bars

 

[Ziggurat]

Showers and changing rooms aside, how can you tell men from transmen without using TSA scanners?

Adam's apples.

 

[DragonLady]

But dragonlady said she would be fine with " obvious dangly bits, no aversive reaction. Baritone voice, hairy chest and suspicious bulges"?

IF they're biologically female, then yes.

Showers and changing rooms aside, how can you tell men from transmen without using TSA scanners?

I find this question facetious at best, and insulting at worst. The person in question knows who they are, don't they?

The men being complained about in this thread KNOW they are men. They know they are making females uncomfortable. They know, and they are taking full advantage of the situation as a form of dominance and passive-aggressive predation.

I shouldn't have to be able to "tell". Those who don't belong there shouldn't be there; and if they cause trouble that should be considered an aggravating factor.

As Rolfe said repeatedly, women have always made exceptions when it seemed warranted -extra long lines, men with small children, etc. But that is being ruined by men using our own kindness and understanding against us; and by those who want to continually twist the spirit of a person's argument for whatever thrill a "gotcha" gets these days.

 

[d4m10n]

I find this question facetious at best, and insulting at worst. The person in question knows who they are, don't they?

They do, but you don't.

If you insist on telling beardy bloke transmen to use the ladies, you're going to have some beardy blokes in the ladies. How is that better (for anyone) than having them in the men's?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Actually, not 100 % true, although extremely close. I learned something from Archie's links. If a rape occurs, which must, under English law include penile penetration, all persons who participated in the act can be charged with rape.

Needless to say, females so charged represent nowhere near 10 percent of perpetrators.

Nowhere did I say that women CHARGED are 10%. I passed on a comment from a woman who is the CEO of Rape Crisis (who I would expect to have a decent handle on these things) that she estimated women were 10% of perpetrators.

Rolfe is correct to say that a woman legally cannot rape a man or a woman, however I don't think that changes the act, or the harm done and I wouldn't for a second try to claim it doesn't count as real rape. That would be the kind of horrible thing that men rightly get castigated for when they try it.

 

[DragonLady]

They do, but you don't.

If you insist on telling beardy bloke transmen to use the ladies, you're going to have some beardy blokes in the ladies. How is that better (for anyone) than having them in the men's?

Okay. I'll play.

If this person -this beardly bloke- is a biological female, and knows it, why should she not feel more comfortable in the women's room?

I would think -but, hell, maybe I'm wrong- it would be better/ easier / more comfortable for her to use the stalls in the women's than to try to --what? straddle? the urinals in the men's.

But apparently you think otherwise, so please explain.

 

[The Atheist]

I would think -but, hell, maybe I'm wrong- it would be better/ easier / more comfortable for her to use the stalls in the women's than to try to --what? straddle? the urinals in the men's.

Men's toilets have stalls in them as well. It's also not compulsory to urinate standing up.

At least, I've never seen an attendant demanding you only open the stall door to have a crap.

 

[DragonLady]

Men's toilets have stalls in them as well. It's also not compulsory to urinate standing up.

At least, I've never seen an attendant demanding you only open the stall door to have a crap.

Okay; so a reasonable argument toward her being able to choose for herself where she's comfortable.

But not a word about why she should not be welcomed in the women's, by the other women.

 

[Rolfe]

Nowhere did I say that women CHARGED are 10%. I passed on a comment from a woman who is the CEO of Rape Crisis (who I would expect to have a decent handle on these things) that she estimated women were 10% of perpetrators.

Rolfe is correct to say that a woman legally cannot rape a man or a woman, however I don't think that changes the act, or the harm done and I wouldn't for a second try to claim it doesn't count as real rape. That would be the kind of horrible thing that men rightly get castigated for when they try it.

So if she knows that rape requires a penis (and a woman being charged as an accessory to something done with someone else's penis isn't exactly common), then where is the 10% number coming from? Who are these women and what exactly are they doing?

 

[Rolfe]

Okay; so a reasonable argument toward her being able to choose for herself where she's comfortable.

But not a word about why she should not be welcomed in the women's, by the other women.

I've been looking at Buck Angel's twitter feed as he seems to be peak transing and it's all quite entertaining watching the wokemaidens call him a terf. I suspect he's more comfortable in the gents, because he obviously fits in better. Though again obviously he'll be doing everything in a stall.

However if he wanted to come into the ladies and women understood what the score was (he's one of the relatively few transmen who really does pass, according to people who have seen him), he should be absolutely free to do that.

Long form. Women have for decades tolerated transwomen in women's spaces because we'd been told they were all oppressed and vulnerable and be sorry for them and besides they've all had surgery. That last wasn't said explicitly but it was the message. And for decades this worked out OK. Women in general would be quite OK about this continuing, but for the self-ID proposal and the increasing tendency for self-described transwomen to do very little to feminise themselves and to demand what had been a concession should be extended to them as a right. And of course the corollary that if anyone can say they're a woman then any creepy pervert, even the ones that don't have AGP, is free to walk in and can't be challenged for fear of the same hate crime allegations women who challenge a transwoman risk.

So we're not refusing to allow any transwoman in the Ladies'. We assumed the ones who came in had had genital surgery but some probably hadn't and it all worked out OK on a don't ask don't tell basis, so long as people were discreet. That Blaire what's-her-name still has all her male bits but probably nobody would bat an eyelid unless she undressed in front of them. But she is the one making YouTube videos telling other transwomen to stay in their lane and don't go in there where you'll make women uncomfortable.

So if we're not going to make a fuss about Blaire, or Kristina Harrison or people like that, it's probable that men aren't going to make a fuss about people like Buck Angel. We can live and let live when we're not being bullied into allowing any man at all who says "I identify as a woman" to waltz in. Probably the men can too.

But if the solution to the present contretemps is that we come to an understanding that the proper place for people with penises is the men's room, and it doesn't matter whether these people are wearing a dress or not, we are asking the men to welcome their transwoman brothers into their space. They are expanding the definition of what it is to be male, not encroaching on the definition of female.

In the context of this solution then absolutely if a transman wants to use the ladies', if for some reason the "kind fiction" in the gents' isn't working out for him, he absolutely has that right. He is female. And we'll work it out.