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America transitions into Gilead

My grandmother, who bore and raised her children in the 1920's and 1930's when abortion was definitely illegal, told me personally that it is not an "abortion/no abortion" question. It has always been "legal abortion/illegal abortion" question. Abortion has always existed, and has been practiced, legal or not. Make it illegal again and it will simply go underground again, making it dangerous and exploitative. That point seems entirely lost on these legislators.
 
Norman Alexander said:
My grandmother, who bore and raised her children in the 1920's and 1930's when abortion was definitely illegal, told me personally that it is not an "abortion/no abortion" question. It has always been "legal abortion/illegal abortion" question. Abortion has always existed, and has been practiced, legal or not. Make it illegal again and it will simply go underground again, making it dangerous and exploitative. That point seems entirely lost on these legislators.
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Not to mention how effective birth control and family planning are in preventing abortions.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Travis how many times is it now the government has turned into an Neo-con nightmare in your head? 10? 20? At this point I'm wondering how far you think it has to go.

Go outside.
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The government is mandating that women try and save ectopic pregnancies and I'm the one that is out of line?
 
Travis said:
The government is mandating that women try and save ectopic pregnancies and I'm the one that is out of line?
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Your statement above is simply false.

Neither the government of Ohio nor any government is mandating that, nor has anyone introduced any legislation that would, if passed, mandate any such thing.

The statement is false, as are the other statements from the OP.


The proposed legislation that seems to be the basis for your statements about ectopic pregnancy is indeed a pretty darned stupid bill, but it deals with insurance coverage for public employees in the state of Ohio, and nothing else. In fact, it even allows for insurance coverage of abortions in the case of ectopic pregnancy. In the course of discussing which abortion procedures could be covered, it makes a very stupid statement about ectopic pregnancy.


There are plenty of bad things that could be said about Republicans and/or legislation proposed by Republicans. There's no need to make stuff up.
 
Meadmaker said:
Your statement above is simply false.

Neither the government of Ohio nor any government is mandating that, nor has anyone introduced any legislation that would, if passed, mandate any such thing.

The statement is false, as are the other statements from the OP.


The proposed legislation that seems to be the basis for your statements about ectopic pregnancy is indeed a pretty darned stupid bill, but it deals with insurance coverage for public employees in the state of Ohio, and nothing else. In fact, it even allows for insurance coverage of abortions in the case of ectopic pregnancy. In the course of discussing which abortion procedures could be covered, it makes a very stupid statement about ectopic pregnancy.


There are plenty of bad things that could be said about Republicans and/or legislation proposed by Republicans. There's no need to make stuff up.
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Please explain how government employees being told their medical bills won't be paid if they get an ectopic pregnancy (remember this likely means an ambulance trip, an ER visit, and a surgery so very pricey) unless a non-existent procedure is done isn't the government mandating that a non-existent procedure be performed? You think pregnant women just keep several hundred thousand laying around to cover this?
 
Norman Alexander said:
My grandmother, who bore and raised her children in the 1920's and 1930's when abortion was definitely illegal, told me personally that it is not an "abortion/no abortion" question. It has always been "legal abortion/illegal abortion" question. Abortion has always existed, and has been practiced, legal or not. Make it illegal again and it will simply go underground again, making it dangerous and exploitative. That point seems entirely lost on these legislators.
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I don't think that point matters.

Suppose you genuinely believe that abortion is murder. You could save some lives of those who choose abortion by making it legal and hence safer. But in doing so, you are essentially making this form of murder legal. If we only care about cost to society, that would be the right thing to do, but if you regard the moral status of abortion as important (and also regard abortion the moral equivalent of murder), it would almost certainly be the wrong thing to do. Even if it comes with lower social cost, it would be wrong to say that murder is acceptable.

Mind, I'm not arguing that abortion ought to be illegal. I'm just pointing out that one who genuinely believes abortion is murder (and this is not a stupid opinion from my point of view) could acknowledge that outlawing abortion comes with higher social costs, deaths from botched backalley abortions even, and still consistently say this is what we ought to do.
 
Travis said:
The government is mandating that women try and save ectopic pregnancies and I'm the one that is out of line?
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It's totally possible that both you and proponents of this bill are out of line. Your tedious hyperbole is not nearly as bad as the effects of this bill, but the fact that the bill is bad doesn't mean your hyperbole should be dismissed.

For goodness sake, criticize the bad actions of politicians, but don't misrepresent their positions. It is dishonest and ineffective.
 
Travis said:
Please explain how government employees being told their medical bills won't be paid if they get an ectopic pregnancy (remember this likely means an ambulance trip, an ER visit, and a surgery so very pricey) unless a non-existent procedure is done isn't the government mandating that a non-existent procedure be performed? You think pregnant women just keep several hundred thousand laying around to cover this?
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I can't understand your point here.

According to Meadmaker, the bill pays for abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancies. I'll take his word on this. Hence, no one is forced to get a non-existent procedure done.

Let's suppose that's not the case, however, and the bill would forbid the insurance paying for abortion in that case. Well, then the woman would have to pay for an abortion. That would be a large burden, regrettable no doubt. But where do you get the several hundred thousand notion? If that's the cost of the non-existent procedure, then it's irrelevant since (1) presumably the bill would mandate payment for that and (2) the woman would still have the option of abortion, which costs rather less than several hundred thousand.

So what did you mean above?
 
JoeMorgue said:
Travis how many times is it now the government has turned into an Neo-con nightmare in your head? 10? 20? At this point I'm wondering how far you think it has to go.

Go outside.
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Having seen a few of Travis's OP's, surely one has to defer to Poe's law?
 
Travis said:
Please explain how government employees being told their medical bills won't be paid if they get an ectopic pregnancy (remember this likely means an ambulance trip, an ER visit, and a surgery so very pricey) unless a non-existent procedure is done isn't the government mandating that a non-existent procedure be performed? You think pregnant women just keep several hundred thousand laying around to cover this?
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The bill doesn't say that. This is a fiction.

The bill is stupid, and it does reference the non-existent procedure to which you are referring, but it does not say that this non-existent procedure must be performed or attempted in order to secure funding for some other, real, procedure. The bill says insurance companies may fund abortion if the abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother. There are no restrictions, requirements, or prohibitions on that clause of the legislation.

The bill also has not been voted on, and I am extremely confident that if it ever gets to a vote, this one specific bit of idiocy will be edited out before even the vote takes place.

My goal here is not to defend the legislation or the idiot legislator who introduced it. In the press, it has been derided, correctly in my opinion, as an example of legislation being introduced by abortion opponents that demonstrates their ignorance of medicine, among other things. The guy is an idiot, as are a lot of people who oppose abortion, and his bill is proof of his idiocy. However, it does not do what you say it does, either in the OP, or in your more recent post. There's plenty of stupid to criticize if you stick to what the bill actually does. There's no need to invent additional stupid.
 
Travis said:
Please explain how government employees being told their medical bills won't be paid if they get an ectopic pregnancy (remember this likely means an ambulance trip, an ER visit, and a surgery so very pricey) unless a non-existent procedure is done isn't the government mandating that a non-existent procedure be performed? You think pregnant women just keep several hundred thousand laying around to cover this?
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If I offer to buy you a cake if it is chocolate, I'm not mandating you buy chocolate cake.
 
shemp said:
I just want to say that I agree with Travis on this, but instead of a quick death jumping off a cliff, they should die in a dumpster fire.
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Fine with me!!! Or in a hell of their own making and deservement!!
 
Gilead is a mountain east of the Jordan River. It was referred to in Genesis. Is that the mountain that the people who didn't freak out about others who voted for Jill Stein supposed to jump off? Does it have cliffs?
 
After we transition into Gilead, will we be allowed to use Gilead rest rooms?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Not to mention how effective birth control and family planning are in preventing abortions.
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Shalamar said:
And comprehensive Sex education!
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Quoted because it bears repeating. Birth control and sex education are the very best ways of preventing abortion, but somehow the (usually Republican) idiots who oppose abortion also oppose those. "Abstinence Only" has, IIRC, been shown to actually increase rates of teen pregnancy.
 
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