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Trans Women are not Women

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Well, on the basis of the real live transwomen I know, I'd say that that idea is bollocks.

Assuming you know like 90 per cent of the trans population, and are a psychologist or the like your point is valid.

Otherwise it is like saying guns are not dangerous because you own 2 water pistols.
 
A woman is someone or something that acts, looks or otherwise behaves in a manner of a female human.

At no point there did you explicitly define anything. A woman is a female human? What's a female human then? Should that person possess female genitalia and have female hormones within typical ranges for their age?

What is "behaves in a manner of ..." supposed to mean? Wear stereotypical women's clothes? Do the cooking and cleaning? Please explain.
 
Exactly. You intentionally choose to define woman in a way as to exclude transsexual women, even though they can be more womanly and feminine than some "biological females" could ever hope to be.

This exclusionary attitude is no different from somehow only acknowledging people of exclusively Swedish descent, requiring Swedish parents going back many generations, as genuinely "Swedish".

Why is that so important to you? What do you gain for defining woman in that way? Absolutely ******* nothing.

A definition that has a use is what is gained.

A key to understanding a bad definition the vast majority of the time is if the word itself is used in the definition.

A car is something with the common characteristics of a car.

A cat is an animal that seems cat like.

A woman is anyone who feels like a woman.
 
Well, I tried, but I'm going to need to hold your hand, here.

What's been discussed mainly is the risk of assault by people who claim to be trans but aren't, which isn't helped by the accusations of bigotry by those who raise the issue. You may disagree with the argument, sure, but don't mischaracterise it.

So you didn't even read what I responded to once let alone twice then? Because there was no mention of assault anywhere in that argument.

There are no plans to change assault laws incidentally, assault would still be assault regardless of gender. But risk of assault is not the argument that was made in the post i replied to.
 
This definition makes perfect sense if you're trying to tell if someone should go to the men's or the women's section at the local department store. It doesn't help us decide whether someone should play women's tennis or use the women's showers, though.

Which is why i suggested that maybe women, men and everyone in-between and beyond this scale should compete together. People however insist on giving women a "fair chance" to compete and win in sports by segregating them, like handicapped people and children. Otherwise it would be so unfair for them.

A Swedish scientist (who was female, not that it matters) said that this decision was necessary to protect women's right to compete on equal terms within a female category.

In the end we are forced to make a pragmatic decision, are we not? In the end it stinks, i think at least. The difference in both public interest and funding for football and "women's football" is a great example of how this kind of discrimination is a double edged sword.
 
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This definition makes perfect sense if you're trying to tell if someone should go to the men's or the women's section at the local department store. It doesn't help us decide whether someone should play women's tennis or use the women's showers, though.

It doesn't really tough.

It essentially uses the definition in the definition.

And further it only works if all females act the same way.
 
I would say that this itself is open to the very problems that other theories of feminism seek to solve, such as the idea that women should not be shoehorned into some stereotypical idea of how a lady woman should behave, i.e ideas that women should be nurses rather than doctors, or firefighters or truck drivers because of women's natural caring and nurturing manner.

Which is probably why this part was added:

I have no apprehensions of recognizing that even a machine made in form of female human could potentially be more of a woman than a "biological female". I can only imagine how triggered all those feminists are by the possibility of being out-competed machines. Hah!

Showing quite clearly the overlap between TRA and MRA. The notion that feminists only oppose the imposition of feminine stereotypes because they're sore losers who can't compete is straight out of the MRA playbook. And it's not just feminists, one can imagine what, say, butch lesbians would have to say about the claim that they're not real women because they don't perform feminine stereotypes. Sexism and homophobia packaged as the new woke.

It's also the same reasoning in claiming that person with white skin could potentially be more of a black person than a person with black skin simply because they adopt the stereotypes associated with black people. A person with white skin who blasts rap music is much more of a black person than a person with black skin who doesn't, and the only reason black-skinned anti-racists oppose such stereotypes (blasting rap music etc) is because they're sore losers who can't compete.

As usual it's the ones who do nothing but make random accusations of sexism, homophobia and racism who are by far the most sexist, homophobic and racist.
 
So you didn't even read what I responded to once let alone twice then? Because there was no mention of assault anywhere in that argument.

There are no plans to change assault laws incidentally, assault would still be assault regardless of gender. But risk of assault is not the argument that was made in the post i replied to.

Canada bans knives that do not look like knives (like a tube of lipstick for example) because it makes it very easy to get them into places knives should not be.

Should we get rid of this law because at the end of the day getting stabbed is getting stabbed?
 
You're not alone in wondering this. I think the percentage is small, however, yet very dangerous and a very good reason to refuse demands for Self ID. Half of transgendered people in prison are in there for sexual offences.

Do you have any links for that. Such people should be presumed to be acting in bad faith.
 
It's also the same reasoning in claiming that person with white skin could potentially be more of a black person than a person with black skin simply because they adopt the stereotypes associated with black people. A person with white skin who blasts rap music is much more of a black person than a person with black skin who doesn't, and the only reason black-skinned anti-racists oppose such stereotypes (blasting rap music etc) is because they're sore losers who can't compete.

 
That's a fair observation. "It has always been that way" is a lousy argument. On the other hand, "It has always been that way." seems to me like a good reason to at least consider the possibility that it ought to continue being that way. At the very least it means you are messing with something that hasn't been messed with in a long time, and caution is advised.

At any rate, the long standing taboo Rolfe was talking about had to do with opposite sex nudity around strangers. As part of the transgender accommodation debate, I have frequently seen people suggest that we should totally change the way we build locker rooms or public toilets. Some say that we should eliminate gender segregation. Others say we should replace common changing rooms with individual, private, changing rooms.


The ones who say the first (eliminate segregation) are a very small minority, and that position would be far more sweeping than anything having to do with transgender issues. It's really not even a suggestion that is on the table as a serious proposal, so it's not worth discussing except as an abstract concept.


The reconfiguration of public spaces to allow individual, private, spaces is a serious proposal, and I haven't seen anyone oppose it in principle. It is simply a matter of economics. I doubt that there are very many people who would be terribly upset if they never had to take their clothes off at the health club or in the high school locker room, but whoever pays the bills to accommodate their privacy might have an objection. If anyone wants to say that that is the solution to the privacy problems of the modern world, I will not dispute it, but I think there's an obligation to address the very real costs associated with such a plan. Is it worth it? To answer that you have to have at least a crude estimate of the cost. The fact that there are zillions of private health clubs in America, and only the very expensive ones have privacy in locker rooms suggests to me that people are not willing to pay for the privacy if they are using their own money.


So, almost no one actually wants the elimination of segregated spaces for men and women, and almost no one wants to pay the cost for individual private spaces. We're back where we started. We have facilities segregated for men and women. The real debate is how to decide who goes into which facility.

I guess we move in different circles. but in all honesty in 40 odd years of being a man I can.count the number of penises I have seen using my fingers. Everywhere I change usually has private spaces for people to be naked and in toilets I can either use a cubicle or just not look. Am I unusual?

To get to the bottom of this we need to determine ehat the real issue is.

For some people, they object to the very idea that a transwoman is a woman regardless

For others they just dont like the idea of people with penises sharing their spaces regardless of whether they are on display or not.

For others apparently they worry about assault.

So what percentage of the problem is honestly 'small risk that may inadvertantly glance at a penis?' And why to be frank is it such a big issue? I mean I dont want to see penises either but i still have to share a bathroom with other people who have them.

Also, why is there apparently never the opposite complaint about female bodies in male spaces?
 
See? It's not an argument that helps either way. I asked before: how do you define "woman", and why?

I don't. It's not up to me. It's not up to anyone really is it? There are a small number of generally artificially created areas where it would ever matter.

If someone tells me they are a woman, or appears to me to generally act in a way I might expect a woman to then I am happy enough to think they are a woman. To date this has caused me precisely zero issues. If I happened to be wrong and the person corrected me I would accept the correction and get on with my life.
 
Having worked with quite a few trans women, I am definitely open to a lot more evidence on both sides of the subject.

I'm highly disturbed by the pre-pubertal hormones we discussed a few pages back and I think there's a lot of merit in what you're saying - trans is being driven by societal desire rather than scientific analysis.


I have quite a lot of information if you're interested, although I'm not sure which aspects you're specifically talking about here.

You say 'both sides', and that indicates you might be talking about something other than what I thought you were. There is this widespread 'positioning' tactic, often employed in other woo beliefs, of pitting the idea one is a proponent of versus 'everything else' to create the illusion the proposed idea is on equal footing. This is seen in homeopathy vs 'alleopathy'. It's seen here in 'Blanchard's hypothesis' vs 'mainstream trans gender theory'. It also makes it simpler to straw man all of the science and debate on the subject to 'just about the feels' vs 'this science man's long really plus extra sciency words'.

At any rate, Blanchard's work and followers are one 'side' but the other 'side' actually are many competing theories and research that actually argue with each other on the details but don't even take his work as worth exploring. This is akin to evolution, just with a lot less data to work with. Specifically discrediting Blanchard isn't something most would even think to engage in because his work has simply bore no fruit to address predicatively. That said, his methods specifically have been taken apart and found not just lacking, but ridiculous. For example, using his definition of 'autogyophile' and apply it to cis women results in 90%+ being categorized as 'autogynophiles', and a more rigorous application (stricter than Blanchard uses) resulting in almost %30 being 'autogynophiles'. That means that using Blanchard's own hypothesis, trans women being autogynophiles would mean they are more like cis women than less like them in that regard. If Blanchard had decided to bother using a control group, perhaps he would have found that himself. Or if he had bothered to use samples that were not from the same clinic. Or if his results had ever been replicated. Basic scientific method issues arise from his work that would normally get any actually skeptical community to laugh his 'study' out the door as, at best, a poorly done pilot study. Here is a brief overview of many of the problems in his work, but of course the real interesting stuff is in the studies that paper cites.

Similarly, and this might interest you specifically because you are concerned about children, studies showing very high rates of desistance among children identified as trans have been shown to be very flawed as well. Specifically, they used outdated criteria to identify trans gender children. 25% or 40% of those children simply don't meet the criteria to identify as trans gender to begin with, so of course they aren't going to be found to be trans gender at a later date. Indeed, the studies showing very high rates of desistance didn't even ask the question 'are you a boy/girl?' of the participants. Therapists have actually shown a very high rate of identifying trans children over time. (If all the links before are too much to go through, this article lays it out pretty well if a little over-simplified, and seems to be the most related to your interest.)

Yes, they do actually use feedback from the subject to determine that, but that does not mean it is 'just feelings'. This quick overview from 2016 has only had more evidence in support come out after.

Notice where many of these links get published and cited. NIH, WHO, APA, Harvard...not mommy blogs. Yeah, a couple are to trans-positive pages but of course they're going to compile articles that link to evidence supporting their view.

Oh, and every time someone cites 'male pattern of criminality', know that the author herself of the work they are misquoting disagrees heavily and specifically with them. It emphatically does NOT show that trans women are as likely as cis men to commit violence against cis women (ironically it is cis lesbians are more likely too, not that this means they should be banned from locker rooms).

Now, it isn't that this topic overall doesn't have some aspects that are genuinely confusing, or debatable, or lacking enough good data that has me so 'over' trying to explain to the general poster what is going on. How to deal with some aspects really is difficult with a lot of room for valid views. What has got me that way is how such nakedly bad 'science' and reasoning is used to bolster some pretty silly positions and being taken as valid reasoning.

Blanchard's work is of no utility to the discussion besides to show what the anti-trans gender people are desperate enough to grasp at. Gender-affirmation therapy (which is NOT just to transition tomboys to men but “listen to the child and decipher with the help of parents or caregivers what the child is communicating about both gender identity and gender expression") isn't the scientific mainstream's most supported method for no good reason; it has evidence, predictive value, and repeatability supporting it.
 
I guess we move in different circles. but in all honesty in 40 odd years of being a man I can.count the number of penises I have seen using my fingers. Everywhere I change usually has private spaces for people to be naked and in toilets I can either use a cubicle or just not look. Am I unusual?

In my fifty odd years, I've seen an awful lot of penises in locker rooms. As noted earlier, though, in recent years the rate of penis observation has gone down. Younger men cover up more than people my age. Standard practice for me, starting in high school and continuing until I was about fifty was to strip naked at my locker, throw a towel over my shoulder and walk across the locker room to the shower stall.

Why younger men started wrapping themselves is a mystery to me, but I've adopted the modern methods myself. It's a bloody inconvenience.

So what percentage of the problem is honestly 'small risk that may inadvertantly glance at a penis?.

Zero. I have never, ever, seen anyone express that fear. If you think you have heard that, you aren't paying attention.

Also, why is there apparently never the opposite complaint about female bodies in male spaces?


Because men and women are different, and have different concerns.

But "never" is not correct, either. Men do complain about that sort of thing, just not exactly in the same way or with the same frequency.

One case I read about in my recent googling to see if high schools were still experiencing transgender issues was kind of interesting. It started with a transboy using the male toilets. Some of the guys objected, and decided to stage a protest. The protest took the form of a group of boys walking into the girls' bathroom. One of the girls, surprised to see a boy in the girls' bathroom did what many think was a perfectly natural response. She kneed him in the groin. She was expelled from school. Officials would not comment due to the ongoing litigation.

ETA: A slight correction. I have said that the penis sighting issue was of zero concern, but that's not quite right. I have heard people express concerns that their daughters might see a penis in the girls' facilities. Even there, the issue was not that their kid might actually see a penis. The issue was that if they saw a penis, and knew what it was, the mothers did not want to have to explain why some men were allowed to use the women's room....because, they aren't really men, because that whole "boys and girls have different bodies" thing isn't strictly true in every case, at least not according to some people and...….

In other words, the issue even there wasn't about seeing a penis, it was that they really didn't want to have conversations about sex, sexuality, and transgenderism with their eight year old daughter.
 
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So you didn't even read what I responded to once let alone twice then?

I did, and I'm telling you what I took away from it. You took away something different. The core of the problem isn't that it makes people uncomfortable, although it's a secondary consideration for sure.

Others have made the latter point clear but so far you've ignored them.

There are no plans to change assault laws incidentally, assault would still be assault regardless of gender.

And there are laws against burglary as well but I'm sure you lock your doors regardless. That something is illegal doesn't mean the risk isn't there. You seem to be quite determined to avoid addressing that point. Why?
 
At no point there did you explicitly define anything. A woman is a female human? What's a female human then?

I suggest you open a entry level biology textbook for special needs students if you have a problem understanding what human females are.

Should that person possess female genitalia and have female hormones within typical ranges for their age?

Not necessarily. A human female that suffered a horizontal bisection would continue to qualify, as does those suffering from hormonal abnormalities. I shouldn't need to explain this so be grateful.

What is "behaves in a manner of ..." supposed to mean? Wear stereotypical women's clothes? Do the cooking and cleaning? Please explain.

If you want to read up on the difference between sexes I'm sure a local or regional library would have plenty of literature on the subject for you to read. Are you old enough to manage that all by yourself or do you need an adult?
 
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