Notre-Dame de Paris - cathedral on fire!

[Giordano]

[snip]


I have no argument with this, especially the hilited part. Of course that is completely impractical. That is why those in charge of fighting the fire should be very wary of putting front line firefighters in danger.

Why is my statement completely impractical? There are many people who volunteer to take high risks to save or protect cultural artifacts, or even objects with much less societal meaning. You yourself allude to fire fighters. Firefighters battle fires in many cases where there are no human lives at risk except the fire fighters' themselves. And firefighters are very knowledgeable about the risks involved.

Law enforcement officers risk their lives to protect property, not just people. Some archeologists risk their lives on dangerous expeditions simply to discover new objects of cultural value. I myself would accept a significant level of risk to my own life to save certain art work and I am not a very brave person.

Sure those in charge of fighting a fire should be and are cautious about putting firefighters at risk; yet they do put themselves at risk at virtually every fire. Risk is inherent to fire fighting and a balance is struck between the level of risk and the damage that the fire might inflict.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

The Gizan Pyramids are a terrible example because they've already been largely dismantled over the millennia. You wouldn't recognize the finished Pyramids from the skeletons standing today.

I've no doubt that reconstructions will take place, replacing the earlier reconstructions. Would a Notre Dame with a steel superstructure still be the same? I think as long as the roof looks the same as it was, and you still see wooden buttresses inside, the composition is only going to matter in future cases of possible destruction.

 

[BobTheCoward]

The Gizan Pyramids are a terrible example because they've already been largely dismantled over the millennia. You wouldn't recognize the finished Pyramids from the skeletons standing today.

I've no doubt that reconstructions will take place, replacing the earlier reconstructions. Would a Notre Dame with a steel superstructure still be the same? I think as long as the roof looks the same as it was, and you still see wooden buttresses inside, the composition is only going to matter in future cases of possible destruction.

They are going to rebuild it so a criminal organization has back their front for their pederasty ring.

 

[BobTheCoward]

It has artistic merit that outweighs it's origination....

Are we talking a Woody Allen film, a Catholic Church, or an R Kelly album?

 

[Elagabalus]

Yeah, nobody said that.

We could rebuild the pyramids, too. But they wouldn't be the 4500 year-old pyramids, would they?

If you made it out of the original blocks it would. If it got hot enough you could even reuse the old mortar.

 

[Elagabalus]

It has artistic merit that outweighs it's origination....

Are we talking a Woody Allen film, a Catholic Church, or an R Kelly album?

None of the above ...


... but Operation: Mindcrime...?

 

[Castro]

Has anyone been able to assess whether any of the stained glass survived?

In an ordinary room fire stained glass wouldn't have a chance. But in a huge space with the ceiling open, and suppression efforts going on, I couldn't make a prediction.

I just heard on the radio that most stained glass windows have been saved but that some of them will certainy need to be partially restored, particularly the lead parts.

 

[Information Analyst]

So it was a lightning strike.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. There was one very probable cause, in that the fire broke out in an area where, a few hours previously, maintenance involving high-temperature equipment had take place. The lighting strike was much less probable, but that couldn't actually be proved, either. Certainly nobody witnessed a strike on the area affected (or, IIRC, the Minister as a whole).

Ultimately there were liability issues that meant that even if the more probable cause had been pursued and accepted, what could have been recovered would have been a drop in the ocean compared to the full cost of the rebuild. The idea that it was "lightning" had also gained such common currency by that time, that to suddenly admit it was negligence would have been hugely embarrassing for the church authorities, and might have affected the flow of donations to the rebuilding fund.

 

[Information Analyst]

I second this. I’ve been there as a tourist several times and never experienced anything but friendliness. My theory is that, waiters, in particular, appreciate my attempts to use their language but my accent probably sounds like dragging your nails down a blackboard to them, so they switch to English.

Same as my experience. Even the worst attempt at French (je parler français comme une vache espagnole) gets a better response that starting with a slow and loud, "do you speak English?"

 

[Planigale]

A thought struck me; the roof was wooden covered with lead, is there a significant pollution risk to the environment? Whilst much lead would just melt some must get dispersed into the air as particulate by the fire?

I can find some work on redistribution of environmental lead from wild fires but nothing on the specific hazard of leaded roof fires.

 

[Information Analyst]

For those saying “can’t be re-built”, much of Normandy was destroyed during WWII and re-built. St Malo was rubble, but now certainly looks and feels like a centuries old port. The same can happen with Notre Dame.

To say nothing of the Cloth Hall in Ieper/Ypres.

 

[lionking]

To say nothing of the Cloth Hall in Ieper/Ypres.

Thanks for that. Now on my “must visit” list.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

alas, the Cathedral of Chalesm is gone forever.

 

[Worm]

Just to add a small parallel for some colour. And this is by no means unique - I'm sure there are many similar stories out there.

It's not really in any way comparable, but I grew up in a small town that had a magnificent 12th Century Abbey - broadly contemporaneous with Notre Dame - it was actually finished around the time that Notre Dame was begun.

It its day, it had the tallest spire in England, and was a landmark. It was a centre of learning with a magnificent library. Around 1500 the spire collapsed, destroying a significant portion of the building - less than half of the original building remains. But you know what? it's still a landmark. It's still in daily use, and is very much a centre of the community. It survived the spire collapse, it survived the dissolution of the monasteries, and it survived my youthful attempts at choir singing.

What happened to Notre Dame is a tragedy, but life goes on, and she will bear her scars with pride.

This too shall pass.

 

[arthwollipot]

One for the architecture nerds...

The medieval design innovation that helped save Notre Dame from perishing completely

 

[Information Analyst]

Thanks for that. Now on my “must visit” list.

The First World War museum housed inside it is certainly not to be missed.

 

[cullennz]

Was googling Notre Dame today just out of curiosity.

Of it's bells the biggest 13 1/4 tonne

You wouldn't want that hitting you on the head....Well not without one of those plastic helmets builders wear on construction sites.

Even then I reckon you might be in trouble

 

[Andy_Ross]

You're not the first to suggest that for some reason my comment that I value important human achievements more than individuals somehow means that I should offer myself as a sacrifice to that ideal. Leaving aside the fact that this isn't even physically possible, what's the point of that suggestion?

Because it is easy to offer other people as sacrifices for your belief.

 

[Belz...]

Reject away. No outrage here. Neither humanity nor their accomplishments are anything to get too worked up about. You seem more upset than anyone else posting here.

Then your ability to read emotion online sucks. I'm not upset, I'm simply stating a value judgment. I knew it would gather responses, but I expected smarter ones.

You do not like the word "offer" That is fine. It is easier to raise semantics than defend your position.

But you _are_ playing with words. I said that I would've prefered one outcome over the other. I'm not asking people to sacrifice their lives, nor would I select people for the trade, myself or others. So your and Swoop's comments about me "offering" myself have nothing to do with the conversation. It was just a way to call me a bad person. So who's 'upset'?

You would be content to see dead humans if they died while preserving some old thing that you like.

Again, you play with words. It's not that I "like" it. I've never even seen it, though I was planning to. The point is the historical and cultural value of it, as I indicated. So why do you say things you know aren't true?

I would be happy seeing the same old thing completely destroyed if it meant all firefighters (hypothetical or real, you choose) go home to their family at the end of their shift.

And yet, just like me, there are things you value over human lives; you just don't want to say it out loud. Say I had magical powers and told you I could save a busload of children in Uganda who were about to fall into a ravine and die, insuring that they live healthy lives, if only you gave up everything you have and live the rest of your existence as a beggar, I guarantee that you wouldn't take the trade. We're no better than one another in this respect, but you had to broadcast to everyone here that you were. I'm not impressed.

If you want to discuss what I actually said on its merits, I welcome the discussion. Otherwise I suggest we focus on the main topic, which is the partial loss of a priceless historical monument.

 

[Belz...]

If you made it out of the original blocks it would. If it got hot enough you could even reuse the old mortar.

A good question. Is the HMS Victory the original, considering that all of its parts were replaced at one time or another? Am I the Belz... who was born in the 70s, since all my cells were replaced since?

Because it is easy to offer other people as sacrifices for your belief.

Nobody said anything of the sort. Why do you lie? You don't usually do that, so what gives? Read my post above.