Trans Women are not Women

[bobdroege7]

I think it's settled law since Renee Richards.

And I also think women's sports can handle the competition.

 

[cullennz]

I think it's settled law since Renee Richards.

And I also think women's sports can handle the competition.

Competing against males?

Good luck with that

 

[cullennz]

I can see exactly what till happen actually.

Prediction

Elite women, and I mean women, not woman, will start boycotting big events in protest.

 

[Brainster]

I think it's settled law since Renee Richards.

The irony is that even Richards now accepts that it wasn't right for her to be playing against women:

“Maybe in the last analysis, maybe not even I should have been allowed to play on the women’s tour. Maybe I should have knuckled under and said, ‘That’s one thing I can’t have as my newfound right in being a woman.’ I think transsexuals have every right to play, but maybe not at the professional level, because it’s not a level playing field.” She opposes the International Olympic Committee’s ruling in 2004 that transgender people can compete after they’ve had surgery and two years of hormonal therapy.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The spirit of competition is the core of sports,

Which is more or less literally what I just said in my previous post. But I would also say that inclusiveness is also at the core of sports.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

But letting trans women compete in womens sports while trying to maintain the fiction that it even is still womens sports will kill it, and it will kill it dishonestly.

I have provided an example of this very thing occurring without it killing the sport, or even apparently impacting it in the slightest and as far as I can tell not one person who advocates transwomen being excluded from women's sport has attempted to tell me why that transwoman should be banned from playing sport.

 

[HansMustermann]

So, it's the "la la la, I can't hear you!" argument by now?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yes, but the risk in this scenario is that whereas it used to be possible for the 0.1% most genetically well-suited, determined, and fortunate females to compete in elite sport (which inspired a great many more to participate or just feel encouraged), that number (and it's positive impact on women and young girls) could be significantly reduced if the opportunity is reduced, which seems very likely, especially at the highest levels, where there is the most exposure and impact. In this situation, the very act of being born female would be a disadvantage, no matter where on the genetically-well-suited-for-sport spectrum one lies.

Well, I think I mentioned earlier that what is being lost is the pretence that these women ever had a chance in the first place. And seems to assume that women only play sports because they think they could be Serena Williams... I am not sure that's the case. But in any case again this seems to simply assume that transwomen are going to completely dominate sports and there will be no outlet for other women and I think I have repeatedly said that i acknowledge that maintaining the competitive element is important.

Do you have any response to the other aspects of my post. Like you, I feel this is worth giving thought to and discussing. It seems though, (perhaps because of the thread title) that you are assuming that anyone who has concluded that trans-women should not compete against females has not given this due thought. I don't think that is the case given that even the very thoughtful alternatives seem non-viable.

I can only go on the arguments being made... and the thread title and repeated attempts to scream the same thing isn't convincing to me. And I do think that anyone who has concluded that trans-women shouldn't ever compete against cis-women hasn't given it due thought because I have given an example where it seems to work fine.

And that's not to say all transwomen should compete against all cis women all of the time.

 

[HansMustermann]

And obviously 1 case trumps the majority of cases, right? Do I need to even explain why that's retarded?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yes. Perhaps acknowledging that elite sport is segregated by biological sex rather than gender helps here. As such, a trans-woman should retain the right to compete in male sports, regardless of degree of transition.

And I think I started a while back by saying 'if that's the rule then change the name to cis-women sports and see what reaction you get' we already had one person claim that's an insult to women here.

And look at the responses being dealt with here.... dripping with scorn and disdain for transwomen. 'Men in bras'. It's pathetic. And if you are asking me to believe that these people have seriously thought about the issue with an open mind and empathy for those involved then I am going to call ********.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

And obviously 1 case trumps the majority of cases, right? Do I need to even explain why that's retarded?

I think you need to explain why you repeatedly argue like a moron but actually, beyond that I'd actually prefer you don't engage with me at all since it seems beyond you to actually comprehend what I am saying and your derogatory posts add exactly zero to any informed discussion on the topic.

 

[HansMustermann]

And I think I started a while back by saying 'if that's the rule then change the name to cis-women sports and see what reaction you get' we already had one person claim that's an insult to women here.

And look at the responses being dealt with here.... dripping with scorn and disdain for transwomen. 'Men in bras'. It's pathetic. And if you are asking me to believe that these people have seriously thought about the issue with an open mind and empathy for those involved then I am going to call ********.

I think the general consensus about just about everything is that you're allowed make fun of it if you're one. I wore a bra and for that matter a dress before. More than once. So what are YOUR qualifications to tell me what I can or can't say about it, silly?

 

[HansMustermann]

I think you need to explain why you repeatedly argue like a moron but actually, beyond that I'd actually prefer you don't engage with me at all since it seems beyond you to actually comprehend what I am saying and your derogatory posts add exactly zero to any informed discussion on the topic.

Says the guy whose only argument so far has been trying to bark some more verbose version of "transphobe!!!" at everyone who disagrees? Sorry, complaining about people comprehending your argument may work after you have a sound argument, not INSTEAD of

But seriously, even above, what you do is just dodge the question, and just go into barking "transphobe!!" mode instead. Yeah, that's a surprise

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I’m a little frustrated that nobody wants to even comment on the idea of using a handicap system to allow trans folks to compete without obliterating cis women. For some sports like racing it’s already a proven strategy to give people competing at a higher level a late start so they can still have the fun of striving for the finish line with everyone.

I think it would need to be fleshed out a little to understand how it would work in practice. I think if it was largely invisible then people might be OK with it but if it looked obviously cooked then maybe not.

I don't think for example having transwomen run 110m instead of 100m would actually solve the issues

I imagine the solution might be different for different sports.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Says the guy whose only argument so far has been trying to bark some more verbose version of "transphobe!!!" at everyone who disagrees? Sorry, complaining about people comprehending your argument may work after you have a sound argument, not INSTEAD of

But seriously, even above, what you do is just dodge the question, and just go into barking "transphobe!!" mode instead. Yeah, that's a surprise

How do you expect someone to respond when you literally answer my point 'that is not to say all transwomen should compete with all ciswomen all of the time' with 'and obviously 1 example trumps the majority'?

You have made no attempt to read what you are replying to and comprehend it. As this further post shows yet again.

 

[HansMustermann]

How do you expect someone to respond when you literally answer my point 'that is not to say all transwomen should compete with all ciswomen all of the time' with 'and obviously 1 example trumps the majority'?

No, my dear, the message I was answering to had this gem, AGAIN: "I have given an example where it seems to work fine." Answering that with "and obviously 1 example trumps the majority" is inaccurate... how?

Seems to me like the comprehension problem still is on your side.

 

[JihadJane]

I have provided an example of this very thing occurring without it killing the sport, or even apparently impacting it in the slightest and as far as I can tell not one person who advocates transwomen being excluded from women's sport has attempted to tell me why that transwoman should be banned from playing sport.

LOL! Maybe get your head out of the sand, Archie!

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No, my dear BS-er, the message I was answering to, and even quoted,

Deary me. If that's an attempt at a lie then it's really risible. If it's an attempt at a counter when you can look back about 3 posts and see you quoted nothing and that the line I am referring to was the very last thing i said before what you said then you are beyond help.

had this gem, AGAIN: "I have given an example where it seems to work fine." Answering that with "and obviously 1 example trumps the majority" is inaccurate... how?

Because it ignores exactly what I said in the following sentence. Did you get tired and stop reading?

Seems to me like the comprehension problem still is on your side.

Well indeed. It would seem that way to you. However, I can't help you.I can explain things for you, I can't comprehend them for you.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

LOL! Maybe get your head out of the sand, Archie!

If this supposed to refute the example?

 

[HansMustermann]

Plus, to address that example, examples of trans-men are irrelevant as to what a normal biological woman can do. Trans-men tend to have a lot of testosterone pumped into them, which is an anabolic steroid. I.e., the only women they're even remotely comparable to are ones which have been on steroids for years, which is not the kind that we allow in women's competitions. So pretending that what a trans-guy can do is relevant in any form or shape to the chances of a normal biological woman against a guy (with or without a bra) is pretty much nonsense.

Edit: and frankly, it's not the the standard I'd wish to promote in woman's sports. If the message we give is that to compete you'd need to be on par with a trans-man, I don't think it's very inspirational to most women. Because I dare say most still like to look like a woman. If you need the kind of testosterone levels that would put you on par with a trans-man, like the one in your example, that one starts to actually transform the body of a woman into a male look-alike. Shoulders starts to broaden, jaw grows leaving gaps between teeth, the clitoris starts to grow into a penis, etc. If THAT's what you need to do to compete against men, I think most women will say "no thanks". And probably the viewers too.