Trans Women are not Women

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luchog said:
So are many other weight and skill classes. Although I have a very hard time believing that given the prevalence of traumatic brain injury in the sport.

But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.
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You seem to be under the impression it was just men who decided that they should be separate
 
luchog said:
That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings. That's why boxing has a welterweight champion alongside a heavyweight champion. Does that mean a welterweight champion is ranked lower than a heavyweight champion, and the category should therefore be avoided?
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That’s really not the same thing. Very skillful lightweight boxers don’t box with sluggers in the heavyweight category because they would regularly end up dead. Similarly there could be plenty of skillful women who are separated from boxing men because of the anatomical advantage that men have. If a woman wants to box men, or a 60 kg man wanted to get in the ring with Tyson Fury then my take would be “hey, it’s your funeral!” But I think at the very least we need to be skeptical if Tyson Fury decides he is in the early stages of transitioning to female and now wants to box as a woman.

Similarly, in something like powerlifting, a very average man with a bit of training could bench press 100 kgs. In any commercial gym there will be several men capable of lifting that. For women, that’s only really possible for elite women, and some of those compete in non-tested competitions which suggests the use of steroids. There is no way that women can compete to win if those with the advantages of a male anatomy and a modicum of training compete with them.

https://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/bench-press/kg
 
Let us have a look at the 400 meters to see if there is a chance of women being competitive with men

2016 Olympics final

Men - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2016_Summer_Olympics_–_Men's_400_metres#Final

Women - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athle...r_Olympics_–_Women's_400_metres_hurdles#Final

The winner of the womens race is nearly 9 seconds slower than the slowest man

Yeah. That would work

Edit: Mucked up. Wrong link (linked to hurdles)

5 seconds slower than the slowest man


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2016_Summer_Olympics_–_Women's_400_metres#Final
 
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angrysoba said:
That’s really not the same thing. Very skillful lightweight boxers don’t box with sluggers in the heavyweight category because they would regularly end up dead. Similarly there could be plenty of skillful women who are separated from boxing men because of the anatomical advantage that men have. If a woman wants to box men, or a 60 kg man wanted to get in the ring with Tyson Fury then my take would be “hey, it’s your funeral!” But I think at the very least we need to be skeptical if Tyson Fury decides he is in the early stages of transitioning to female and now wants to box as a woman.

Similarly, in something like powerlifting, a very average man with a bit of training could bench press 100 kgs. In any commercial gym there will be several men capable of lifting that. For women, that’s only really possible for elite women, and some of those compete in non-tested competitions which suggests the use of steroids. There is no way that women can compete to win if those with the advantages of a male anatomy and a modicum of training compete with them.

https://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/bench-press/kg
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I guess some people really are clueless on the concept of "skill and weight classes".
 
Belz... said:
Assuming you're right, they should just eliminate the segregation of men and women in sports and let the best person man win.
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This isn't such as terrible idea, really.

Women's sport is undoubtedly a benefit, but the price is sex segregation and (thus) separate-but-unequal treatment.

I really do enjoy watching women's rugby, but I can probably get by with just the men's league.
 
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luchog said:
But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.
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This is so off-base it is unbelievable.

I am more than happy for the male category to be changes to an open class which allows women and transmen to compete. But frankly, the problem with that is that, as John Macenroe said (to howls of outrage), if Serena Williams were to compete in the men’s category she would be 400th in the world.

Women are basically excluded from men’s categories in order to preserve the value of the women’s category. And that value is what a lot of female athletes are upset about being under threat.
 
luchog said:
I guess some people really are clueless on the concept of "skill and weight classes".
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Clue me in. You first said skill class and then confused it with weight classes. What is a “skill and weight” class? Is this actually a thing?
 
luchog said:
I guess some people really are clueless on the concept of "skill and weight classes".
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So explain it. Baseball has skill classes. The highest skilled players make big bucks in the major leagues. The lower skilled players play in the minors. If you had co-ed baseball, men would dominate the majors, because of the strength advantage they have at every skill level.

Pro boxing also has skill classes, in the sense that only the most skilled boxers in each weight class rise to the top of the sport. Put women in the mix, and the sport would still be dominated by men, in every weight class.

What's not to get? If we're missing some important aspect of your proposal, please explain it.

How would skill classes enable competitive co ed boxing at any level of the sport?

ETA: I think part of the problem is that you don't have much clue about how closely strength and skill are related, in tests of physical prowess. Baseball pitchers are a good example of this.
 
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applecorped said:
No. No it's not.
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Nonetheless I would like to hear luchog’s explanation. I’m genuinely interested in learning how this conundrum can be solved. I actually teach some women who have a reasonable chance of competing in the Olympics and I genuinely want to know what the future holds for female sports.

I am not interested in trading snark. If I am clueless then I have a chance of learning something and I welcome that.
 
luchog said:
So are many other weight and skill classes. Although I have a very hard time believing that given the prevalence of traumatic brain injury in the sport.

But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.
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If you think the guys have anything to worry about, you don't really understand sport.

Women on the other hand would become second class competitors.

I feel you are trying to paint it as a toxic masculinity issue because it is a debate that you are more comfortable with.
 
angrysoba said:
Nonetheless I would like to hear luchog’s explanation. I’m genuinely interested in learning how this conundrum can be solved. I actually teach some women who have a reasonable chance of competing in the Olympics and I genuinely want to know what the future holds for female sports.

I am not interested in trading snark. If I am clueless then I have a chance of learning something and I welcome that.
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I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.
 
sadhatter said:
I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.
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Is this a thing that actually exists? The only comparable examples I know of are of no help to women at all. They tend to be split between amateur and pro - but they would still be dominated by cis-males. Obviously there are leagues in which teams can get promoted or relegated but again, in say the FA in the UK all the teams are male and probably will remain that way. I can see women getting into sports where there are specializations - coxes in rowing etc... baseball relief pitchers who have some special throw, etc... darts, snooker (oddly enough men seem to dominate these sports too!) Also I know of things like rugby sevens where the best teams play for the cup, the less good ones play for the plate and the worst ones play for spoon - or try to avoid it. Still, even the worst teams would probably be all-male affairs. I know of veterans leagues which use only over-40s but again all male.

I literally can’t see a way of women being competitive without their own leagues. So yeah, I agree with luchog about being clueless regarding luchog’s fix, despite luchog not giving a rat’s arse about sport. I await enlightenment.
 
luchog said:
But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.
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Minor league baseball survives in no small part because teams act as recruiting pools for the majors. And even in the minors few women could compete. If women have to compete against men, then in almost every sport the best women will be competing against lower tier men, and women’s participation in professional sports becomes just a rare curiosity.

If you think gender equality is important enough to justify that, well, that’s what you value, and there’s no point in arguing about it. But that’s what is at stake.
 
sadhatter said:
I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.
Click to expand...

But if biological women are not as good as biological men then 'women's' and 'men's' designations are effectively the same thing.It seems to be just a quirk of our social conditioning that we ended up here where womens and mens elite sports are seen as equivalent despite the gulf in class but you cannot deny that this binary system is excluding trans people and as ideas of gender change there are going to be issues like this that need to be rethought.

I am not clear what the answer is but maybe it is about having classes that better reflect what would actually be going on. Of course, you could just redefine Women's sports as Cis-women's sports. But I imagine a lot of women would object to that too.

And that is what bothers me about a lot of this. Women who want to close off their world to transwomen, deny that they are women and assume bad faith on the part of transwomen - you just want to muscle in on our space so you can beat us up/rape us/molest kids/stop us playing sport/etc etc
 
sadhatter said:
I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.
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I am wondering why you seem fixated on boxing which involves elements of actual physical danger.

Straight question

Do you think Trans men should be able to get into the ring and fist fight women within the same weight ratio in boxing?

And

Do you think men should be able to get into the ring and fist fight women within the same weight ratio in boxing?

Not difficult questions. Direct. Rather than your pretend ignorance

Edit: apologies re-read.

Those questions are to Luchog
 
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Belz... said:
Yes, so women would mostly compete in the lower professional rankings. The top tiers would be dominated, perhaps entirely populated, by men.
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this is already the case. We just pretend it isn't by calling them women's and men's sports rather than 'Elite sport' and 'not as good/strong' sports.
 
Ziggurat said:
women’s participation in professional sports becomes just a rare curiosity.
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I follow you up to here but don't see that this follows. There are plenty of non-elite professional sportspeople at various levels. In fact that is what women's sport currently is and it does quite well in many areas.
 
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