proto-consciousness field theory

If you don't know what the thread is about by now I'm at a complete loss as to how to explain it any further.

That happens when one side is defining both the problem and the answer.

You've handed me a sheet of paper that says X+1-1 = X-1+1 and asked me to solve for X but won't accept "Hey maybe X isn't there, we can just factor it out" as an answer.

So... yeah. Ya "Got" me. I can't explain the indescribable feeling of "awareness" that exists entirely in your head by definition.
 
A machine reacts to a photon by moving an object -

* A photon impacts a sensor. An electrical impulse is sent down a wire to a motor. The motor moves an object.

A person reacts to a photon my moving an object -

* A photon impacts a sensor (eye). The person experiences a flash of light. An electrical impulse is sent down a wire (nerve) to a motor (brain). The motor (brain) moves an object (finger).

Conscious experience.
How is it possible that people can't grasp this concept? I genuinely can't understand it.

You mean the wire doesn't experience the electrical impulse ?
 
You mean the wire doesn't experience the electrical impulse ?

I didn't mean that, no. The highlighted portion is an addition found only in option 2). Therefore the people who don't believe consciousness is a thing need to explain how this discrepancy arises.
 
It's the chemical reactions happening mostly in the brain.
All of which happen according to the laws of physics and would happen just fine if there was no accompanying experience of pain etc

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It's the chemical reactions happening mostly in the brain.
What's the difference between the reactions you are consciously aware of and those that you aren't? Are the chemicals themselves actually important and to what degree? Could other chemicals stand in? Totally replaced with electrical signals?
 
A machine reacts to a photon by moving an object -

* A photon impacts a sensor. An electrical impulse is sent down a wire to a motor. The motor moves an object.

A person reacts to a photon my moving an object -

* A photon impacts a sensor (eye). The person experiences a flash of light. An electrical impulse is sent down a wire (nerve) to a motor (brain). The motor (brain) moves an object (finger).

Conscious experience.
How is it possible that people can't grasp this concept? I genuinely can't understand it.
Offtopic:
I doubt a person would experience a flash of light from a single photon, but anyway carry on.
 
If a p-zombie is posited to be possible, then we have to explain how non p-zombie species (ourselves, at the very least) could have evolved. Which we cannot do, because p-zombies by definition have all the same behaviors as humans. When we contemplate a p-zombie, we might have a vague notion in the backs of our minds (perhaps influenced to by a long line of science fiction AI characters) that a p-zombie would not strive as hard to survive because it doesn't experience subjective pain, or would not be as successful mating or nurturing because it doesn't experience subjective feelings of love, but that cannot actually be the case given how p-zombies are defined. The p-zombie must be every bit as adapted for fitness in all areas including those, or else we'd be able to distinguish them objectively, which would be a contradiction. Which, as I said, means there can be no selection for conscious brains over p-zombie brains.

The proto-consciousness field hypothesis has an analogous problem. If there is no difference in behavior between an organism with a brain that's evolved to interact strongly with the field and one that whose brain does all the same neuro-synaptic pulse frequency switching but does not interact with the field, and both kinds of brain are possible, then there's no reason for the former to have evolved.

There are only two ways to go from there. One is straight into "Scientific Creationism" style arguments: consciousness (whether inherent in the functioning of the brain as in the p-zombie thought experiment, or involving an unknown physical interaction with an unknown field as in the proto-consciousness field thought experiment) is so improbable that it can only be reasonably explained by intervention of some other intelligence. Except in this case the argument is actually a valid one, because we explicitly do not have evolution "climbing Mt. Improbable" for us as an explanation.

The other is to reject the premise that (in the first case) a p-zombie is possible or (in the second case) that a brain that generates the full range of human behavior without interacting with the field is possible.

I much prefer the latter resolution. But in the case of the pc-field hypothesis that leads to a dead end. If the interaction with the field is a necessary by-product of the brain doing what it does to generate the behaviors that give us adaptive advantages, then all we can do is study the "what it does" and "how what it does generates our behaviors" questions as we're already doing. Subjective awareness in and of itself has no adaptive advantage to look for, and no dedicated structural adaptations toward that characteristic to find or examine. Furthermore, our understanding of what actually causes consciousness is not advanced at all; we've gone at best from not understanding how brain function causes consciousness to how the field (or interaction with the field, or whatever generates the field) causes consciousness. And that new mystery cannot even be studied, since we have no way to detect or test the field. And if, as many researchers claim, we actually have made progress in understanding how brain function causes consciousness, then it's an even worse deal, abandoning that progress and taking a big step backward, on no evidence.
 
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If a p-zombie is posited to be possible, then we have to explain how non p-zombie species (ourselves, at the very least) could have evolved.

It's not clear that this is a species wide phenomena. Darat in this very thread claims to be a p-zombie by most definitions. Others claim to experience qualia and subjective awareness.

Which we cannot do, because p-zombies by definition have all the same behaviors as humans. When we contemplate a p-zombie, we might have a vague notion in the backs of our minds (perhaps influenced to by a long line of science fiction AI characters) that a p-zombie would not strive as hard to survive because it doesn't experience subjective pain, or would not be as successful mating or nurturing because it doesn't experience subjective feelings of love, but that cannot actually be the case given how p-zombies are defined. The p-zombie must be every bit as adapted for fitness in all areas including those, or else we'd be able to distinguish them objectively, which would be a contradiction. Which, as I said, means there can be no selection for conscious brains over p-zombie brains.
This is perfectly true. There is no reason a p-zombie could not be as well adapted as a conscious person. In fact there is no known reason they couldn't be better adapted.
 
This is perfectly true. There is no reason a p-zombie could not be as well adapted as a conscious person. In fact there is no known reason they couldn't be better adapted.

The Peter Watts novel Blindsight explores this:

It's a story of first contact with an alien species and it's determined through the course of the novel that communications with them are actually like communicating with a Chinese Room - they make all the right noises, but they don't actually understand anything either party is saying.

By the end of the novel the humans have come to realise that the aliens have no consciousness at all, and it's hypothesised that humans are an evolutionary anomaly in having developed consciousness, which takes energy to produce and maintain and which offers no evolutionary advantage.
 
Hell the very concept of brain damage, as in if you injure part of your brain part of your mental processing stops working and if you injure the whole brain... all of it does pretty much ends the discussion.

Yep, just like if you smash your TV it proves radio signals don't exist. :rolleyes:
 
It's where the pieces of the clock hit each other to make the ticking sound. We can thoroughly explain how the sound is produced with physics and foumlas. What point are you trying to make?

I'm not asking you to find the mechanism that makes the ticking sound. I'm asking you to find the ticking in the clock.

It's the exact same argument that people are making about brains and consciousness.
 
I'm not asking you to find the mechanism that makes the ticking sound. I'm asking you to find the ticking in the clock.
Yeah, I found it. It's not hard to find ticking.


It's the exact same argument that people are making about brains and consciousness.


It's not any argument I'm making. BTW I'd suggest double checking whether anyone is actually making that argument.
 
I suppose that if consciousness doesn't exist if it's a process, like the ticking of a clock, then that means that the hypothesis that consciousness is an emergent property of a brain only has one entity - a brain. So that makes it more parsimonious than a hypothesis that relies on a brain and a consciousness field.

That's essentially my argument, yes.
 
???

If you can do that, just go ahead and do that.

Sorry, I can't parse your post. What are you saying?

They are components of the brain. Explain how they produce consciousness.

And there we go. It's a perpetual dance. No one here is claiming that we've solved consciousness, so your request here is irrelevant. What we're saying is that there is no reason to assume consciousness is anything more than a behaviour of a functioning brain, just like "ticking" emerges from a functioning clock or "running" is produced by functioning legs.
 
I can't reject something that doesn't exist. There is no scientific consensus on how consciousness arises.

I'm pretty sure there's a consensus that it arises "from the brain", however. Do you want to poll neuroscientists on that?

Yeah, I found it. It's not hard to find ticking.

Really? You found the ticking?

Show it to me.

It's not any argument I'm making. BTW I'd suggest double checking whether anyone is actually making that argument.

God, did you already lose track of the conversation? It's the argument I'M making. Not you. Christ.
 
Actually, not really. But I'll take your question in the spirit it's intended, e.g. does a ball move? Yes, a ball does move. Is movement a thing? No, clearly not.

Then explain how the ball gets from location A to location B. If it's not a thing, how can it happen?

Once you've done that, explain why consciousness is not of the same nature as this movement.

What kind of question is that? Why the heck would it be? Why is beauty not like a flea up a drainpipe? Why is 134 not the aroma of rabbits with a hint of unhinged jealousy? Just because you can form a grammatically correct equivalence doesn't mean you should.

Grammatically? It's a logical inference, not a linguistic one. Every single piece of evidence we have supports the idea that consciousness is produced by the brain. Clearly it isn't a substance, so the logical conclusion is that it is an action, instead. For some reason, you found an out by denying that actions exist at all, and are appealing to some semantic nonsense to support that.

The uniqueness of conscious experience

You have nothing to compared it to. How the hell do you know that it's unique?
 

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