• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged General Holocaust denial discussion Part IV

smartcooky said:
Good post and well put.

Also, as time goes on, and three are less and less people around who either experienced it first hand, or who have parents and relatives who did, it will become easier for your 'casual, lazy 'questioning' suggestion to become more common.
Click to expand...

That is a real problem. As the living memory of Fascism and what it was like fade, it gives a new opening for Fascism to make a comeback.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book has been translated into English. There has been little discussion of the book at denier forms. Below, however, is a listing of articles on Mattogno's new book published at the Holocaust Controversies blog.

Mattogno takes on the Jäger Report (well, he tries) - Roberto Muehlenkamp

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5 (1)

Part 5 (2)

publishing history by Roberto Muehlenkamp

Germar Rudolf’s foreword to Mattogno’s Einzatzgruppen book

articles by Jon Harrison

Mattogno's Distortion of Orders in his Italian Einsatzgruppen Book

Some Initial Observations on Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen Handbook

Mattogno's Distortions on the Crimea

Mattogno on the Killing of 4,273 Children in Kaunas [Kovno]

Mattogno on Riga, Part One: Keine Liquidierung Revisited - Andy Mathis

Mattogno on Riga, Part One: Keine Liquidierung Revisited

Mattogno on Riga, Part Two: Phone Calls in Riga, Prague, and Berlin

Mattogno on Riga, Part Three: Hierarchies Are Hard

Mattogno on Riga, Part Four: Polishing a Turd

articles by Hans Metzner

SK Lange and Mattogno's Italian Book on the Einsatzgruppen

Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part I: A Dilettante at Work

(more to come)
Click to expand...

SO Richard Rhodes "Masters Of Death" is in no danger of being replaced as the go to book on the Einsatzgruppen?
 
Georgio said:
Speaking from personal experience, I think the problem is that the 'argument' for Holocaust denial can be made to be extremely compelling for those who don't really know how historical evidence works. I saw a video by Anthony Lawson which was (I now know) the usual HD trick of repeating things like, 'There still isn't one single piece of physical evidence that shows...' etc. If you don't know about consilience (as I didn't), then that sort of rhetoric is extremely powerful.

I was never actually convinced that there was anything in the claims because I immediately did a google search on them (and as I'm sure you know this very quickly leads to them all being comprehensively debunked), but the fact is after watching that video I did think, 'Wow. Maybe there's something to this after all - maybe it is being suppressed' etc. and that kind of casual, lazy 'questioning' of the Holocaust will be what surveys like that are measuring: the results of idle office conversations with someone who saw something on twitter and says, 'Did you know that the wooden doors at Auschwitz couldn't have been used as gas chamber doors? That 'six million' number was changed from 1 million overnight. Zyklon B can't actually be used to kill humans. There weren't any holes in the roof. I know! I couldn't believe it either!' and so on.

The problem is that the deniers know their market and know that saying, 'There isn't ONE SINGLE piece of evidence that directly proves the Holocaust happened' will convince a lot more untrained people than saying, 'There are a million things that indirectly prove it happened'.
Click to expand...

It is only if you ignore all the witnesses who say they saw a gassing take place, that there is a claim that there is not one SINGLE piece of evidence for the Holocaust.

I have found that the demand for a single piece of evidence revolves around a Hitler Order, or wanting to see a mass grave. Like Hitler would have signed an order saying, gas all Jewish people and it would be accepted as authentic, or you can somehow see a mass grave where the bodies had been exhumed. cremated and then buried in a haphazard way back into the ground.

I think the best way to stop denial in its tracks is to ask to see evidence of an alternative. Ask a denier to provide evidence of what did happen to those who were not selected to work on arrival at the AR camps. Deniers hate that.
 
Nessie said:
It is only if you ignore all the witnesses who say they saw a gassing take place, that there is a claim that there is not one SINGLE piece of evidence for the Holocaust.

I have found that the demand for a single piece of evidence revolves around a Hitler Order, or wanting to see a mass grave. Like Hitler would have signed an order saying, gas all Jewish people and it would be accepted as authentic, or you can somehow see a mass grave where the bodies had been exhumed. cremated and then buried in a haphazard way back into the ground.

I think the best way to stop denial in its tracks is to ask to see evidence of an alternative. Ask a denier to provide evidence of what did happen to those who were not selected to work on arrival at the AR camps. Deniers hate that.
Click to expand...

This may be the case, but to deny all the imagery of the time, flies in the face of a denier's belief.
 
bknight said:
This may be the case, but to deny all the imagery of the time, flies in the face of a denier's belief.
Click to expand...

Since there are lots of photos and film of mass shootings, only the more extreme deniers deny those. There are obviously no photos or film of mass (or any) gassings and that is the main target for deniers.

They find all the evidence from witnesses easy to dismiss, since they are mainly anti-Semitic they have no problem declaring all the Jewish witnesses as liars and the Nazis as coerced by Jews (somehow).

If there is one piece of evidence about gas chambers that I think is pretty compelling, it is this;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust...sac/technique-and-operation/pressac0446.shtml

A worksheet by a German foreman about constructing a gas chamber in either Krema IV or V.
 
Nessie said:
I have found that the demand for a single piece of evidence revolves around a Hitler Order, or wanting to see a mass grave. Like Hitler would have . . .
Click to expand...
Not one but 34 pieces of evidence linking the Führer to the mass murder of Jews:

1. Gestapo Müller, directive on Einsatzgruppen reports, 1 August 1941 (Fleming, pp 109-110, Unwritten, p 124, http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf)

2. Himmler, instructions to Bradfisch in Minsk, mid-August 1941 (Fleming, pp 50-51)

3. Himmler, explanation, late summer 1941, as related in 1962 by Horst Bender, dept III Himmler’s staff and SS and Police Judge (Fleming, p 51)

4. Himmler, explanation, September 1941, Streckenbach 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

5. Himmler, explanation, before Heydrich’s death, date unclear, Gottlob Berger 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

6. Jeckeln, instructions from Himmler, 10-11 November 1941 (Fleming, p 44)

7. Hitler, from notes on meeting with Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, 28 November 1941 (Fleming, pp 102-105; https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/...ttpsredir=1&article=1170&context=constructing)

8. Goebbels’ diary, 13 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 154; https://www.hdot.org/longrole/# - http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft Word - 3875.pdf)

9. Rosenberg diary, 14 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 155)

10. Frank speech, 16 December 1941 (http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/removal.html, Gerlach's Wannsee article)

11. Himmler diary, 18 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 155)

12. Eichmann interrogation, preceding Wannsee Conference - late 1941? (Fleming, p 67)

13. Goebbels diary, 14 February 1942 (Unwritten, p 157)

14. Goebbels diary, 2 March 1942 (https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/...ttpsredir=1&article=1170&context=constructing)

15. Goebbels diary, 20 March 1942 (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goebbels-joseph/goebbels-1948-excerpts-01.html)

16. Goebbels diary, 27 March 1942 (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goebbels-joseph/goebbels-1948-excerpts-01.html - Fleming pp 62-63, 111, Unwritten, pp 172-173)

17. Wisliceny IMT testimony re: Eichmann & Final Solution order, April 1942 (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-03-46.asp)

18. Heydrich, Prague conference on SD and Intelligence Service responsibilities, May 1942, declaration of Otto Wagner 1979 (Fleming p 60)

19. Goebbels’ diary, 29 May 1942 (Unwritten, p 184)

20. Himmler, explanation, early summer 1942, Streckenbach 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

21. Himmler to Gottlob Berger, 28 July 1942 (https://www.hdot.org/longrole/; Fleming, p 112)

22. Himmler, announcing that armaments workers were to be collected into camps, 9 October 1942 (Unwritten, p 189; Fleming, pp 44, 128)

23. Himmler, notes on conversation with Führer, follow-up notes to Müller - on France, 6 and 10 December 1942 (Unwritten, pp 109-110; Fleming, p 66)

24. Meldung 51, 3 December 1942, Himmler to Hitler (http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf; Unwritten, p 150)

25. Korherr report for Hitler, January 1943 (Fleming, pp 135-139)

26. First Schloss Klessheim meeting, 17-18 March 1943 (Fleming, pp 157-166; Unwritten, p 203; Longerich Irving Trial https://www.hdot.org/longrole/; http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf)

27. Hitler, 8 June 1943 (1384-PS Red Series vol III, p 959; HC White Paper)

28. Himmler speech, Posen, to generals, 26 January 1944, declaration of Freiherr von Gersdorff 1979 (Fleming, pp 52-53)

29. Himmler, Sonthofen speech, 24 May 1944 (Fleming, p 54)

30. Himmler, secret speech, 21 July 1944 (Longerich Irving Trial https://www.hdot.org/longrole/)

31. Eichmann, Sassen interviews, “. . . the order of the one-time Fuhrer of the German Reich, Adolf Hitler . . .” (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/trials/profiles/eichmannintro.html)

32. Eichmann memoir/papers, Ich (https://www.hdot.org/vanpelt/#note_vanPelt_xi2n1012)

33. Wetzel's 25 October 1941 letter and his 1961 Hannover testimony

34.Ribbentrop to Veesenmayer, 10 July 1944 (Braham, p 1033; Levine Wallenberg, pp 193-194)


https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29669&p=666649#p666649
 
Last edited:
The book I previously mentioned, "Masters of Death" by Richard Rhodes, is easily the best book about the Einsatzgruppen.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Not one but 34 pieces of evidence linking the Führer to the mass murder of Jews:

1. Gestapo Müller, directive on Einsatzgruppen reports, 1 August 1941 (Fleming, pp 109-110, Unwritten, p 124, http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf)

2. Himmler, instructions to Bradfisch in Minsk, mid-August 1941 (Fleming, pp 50-51)

3. Himmler, explanation, late summer 1941, as related in 1962 by Horst Bender, dept III Himmler’s staff and SS and Police Judge (Fleming, p 51)

4. Himmler, explanation, September 1941, Streckenbach 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

5. Himmler, explanation, before Heydrich’s death, date unclear, Gottlob Berger 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

6. Jeckeln, instructions from Himmler, 10-11 November 1941 (Fleming, p 44)

7. Hitler, from notes on meeting with Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, 28 November 1941 (Fleming, pp 102-105; https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/...ttpsredir=1&article=1170&context=constructing)

8. Goebbels’ diary, 13 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 154; https://www.hdot.org/longrole/# - http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft Word - 3875.pdf)

9. Rosenberg diary, 14 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 155)

10. Frank speech, 16 December 1941 (http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/removal.html, Gerlach's Wannsee article)

11. Himmler diary, 18 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 155)

12. Eichmann interrogation, preceding Wannsee Conference - late 1941? (Fleming, p 67)

13. Goebbels diary, 14 February 1942 (Unwritten, p 157)

14. Goebbels diary, 2 March 1942 (https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/...ttpsredir=1&article=1170&context=constructing)

15. Goebbels diary, 20 March 1942 (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goebbels-joseph/goebbels-1948-excerpts-01.html)

16. Goebbels diary, 27 March 1942 (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goebbels-joseph/goebbels-1948-excerpts-01.html - Fleming pp 62-63, 111, Unwritten, pp 172-173)

17. Wisliceny IMT testimony re: Eichmann & Final Solution order, April 1942 (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-03-46.asp)

18. Heydrich, Prague conference on SD and Intelligence Service responsibilities, May 1942, declaration of Otto Wagner 1979 (Fleming p 60)

19. Goebbels’ diary, 29 May 1942 (Unwritten, p 184)

20. Himmler, explanation, early summer 1942, Streckenbach 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

21. Himmler to Gottlob Berger, 28 July 1942 (https://www.hdot.org/longrole/; Fleming, p 112)

22. Himmler, announcing that armaments workers were to be collected into camps, 9 October 1942 (Unwritten, p 189; Fleming, pp 44, 128)

23. Himmler, notes on conversation with Führer, follow-up notes to Müller - on France, 6 and 10 December 1942 (Unwritten, pp 109-110; Fleming, p 66)

24. Meldung 51, 3 December 1942, Himmler to Hitler (http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf; Unwritten, p 150)

25. Korherr report for Hitler, January 1943 (Fleming, pp 135-139)

26. First Schloss Klessheim meeting, 17-18 March 1943 (Fleming, pp 157-166; Unwritten, p 203; Longerich Irving Trial https://www.hdot.org/longrole/; http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf)

27. Hitler, 8 June 1943 (1384-PS Red Series vol III, p 959; HC White Paper)

28. Himmler speech, Posen, to generals, 26 January 1944, declaration of Freiherr von Gersdorff 1979 (Fleming, pp 52-53)

29. Himmler, Sonthofen speech, 24 May 1944 (Fleming, p 54)

30. Himmler, secret speech, 21 July 1944 (Longerich Irving Trial https://www.hdot.org/longrole/)

31. Eichmann, Sassen interviews, “. . . the order of the one-time Fuhrer of the German Reich, Adolf Hitler . . .” (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/trials/profiles/eichmannintro.html)

32. Eichmann memoir/papers, Ich (https://www.hdot.org/vanpelt/#note_vanPelt_xi2n1012)

33. Wetzel's 25 October 1941 letter and his 1961 Hannover testimony

34.Ribbentrop to Veesenmayer, 10 July 1944 (Braham, p 1033; Levine Wallenberg, pp 193-194)


https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29669&p=666649#p666649
Click to expand...

You can add Mein Kampf and Hitler's own speeches to that list. Deniers react by claiming extermination, liquidation etc actually means relocation and resettlement, or it only referred to partisans.

They then demand to see an order to gas the Jews....and back we go to the start.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Not one but 34 pieces of evidence linking the Führer to the mass murder of Jews
Click to expand...

'Linking'? 'Linking'? Oh, no no no. It has to be film footage of Hitler saying 'I want to exterminate the Jews' and even then footage can be faked so we would need DNA samples (or something) of the actual air that his mouth was producing when he said it, and even then those results can be faked. :D
 
The irony is that those deniers run a mile when asked to evidence what did happen.
 
>>You can add Mein Kampf and Hitler's own speeches to that list.

Those are of a different category. The items on the list I posted are meant to connect Hitler to actions or to explain what was done, sort of like what Longerich did in his book The Unwritten Order, not to express his thoughts or threats he made. But one could indeed list statements made by Hitler and his circle of that variety:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2015/08/more-than-100-nazi-extermination.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2015/07/hitler-30.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/03/more-nazi-mass-murder-statements.html
 
Last edited:
Georgio said:
'Linking'? 'Linking'? Oh, no no no. It has to be film footage of Hitler saying 'I want to exterminate the Jews' and even then footage can be faked so we would need DNA samples (or something) of the actual air that his mouth was producing when he said it, and even then those results can be faked. :D
Click to expand...

And that footage must be on YouTube and show mass graves in the background.
 
Nessie said:
The irony is that those deniers run a mile when asked to evidence what did happen.
Click to expand...

Well, on the occasions when they tried to prove their points in court where they have to produce evidence , (David Irving being the most prominent) it has
not gone well for the Deniers.
 
A blogger named Alison Chabloz has been convicted for singing a song mocking the holocaust in the UK. Free speech does not exist in Britain. Saying it is "offensive" or "in poor taste" is rubbish because the UK has a long tradition of satire including the magazine Punch and comedians such as Monty Python.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12299
 
Mondial said:
A blogger named Alison Chabloz has been convicted for singing a song mocking the holocaust in the UK. Free speech does not exist in Britain. Saying it is "offensive" or "in poor taste" is rubbish because the UK has a long tradition of satire including the magazine Punch and comedians such as Monty Python.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12299
Click to expand...
Again it needs stating to people like you "Free Speech" does not mean "Freedom from Consequences of Speech". Even in the USA you can't go shouting "Fire" in a crowded movie theatre when there is no fire. You can think what you like in the UK. You can say what you like to family, friends and like minded individuals. But if you are foolish enough to publish views calling for violence or bigotry in public fora you face the possibility of prosecution because there are laws against that kind of thing. Reading her statements in the article you linked to it is clear she is Anti Jewish and believes all the ridiculous tropes that have been propagated in Europe for more than a thousand years. She isn't presenting historical evidence in a way which can be evaluated and add to our knowledge of events, she is just being bigoted, anti-Jewish and inflammatory. Again she has a right to think that way but if she puts it in the public sphere she can be challenged on it. That is what happened and seeing her odious take on what happened to the Jews between 1933 - 1945 (as well as gays, socialists, Roma, the mentally impaired and resistance groups like the White Rose) it seems that she received a correct judgement in a UK Court of Law.
 
Mondial said:
A blogger named Alison Chabloz has been convicted for singing a song mocking the holocaust in the UK. Free speech does not exist in Britain. Saying it is "offensive" or "in poor taste" is rubbish because the UK has a long tradition of satire including the magazine Punch and comedians such as Monty Python.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12299
Click to expand...

Her songs were not satirical, she just claimed they were to avoid prosecution.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom