The Green New Deal

From the FAQ, which is still posted on NPR's website:

"We set a goal to get to net-zero, rather than zero emissions, in 10 years because we aren't sure we can get rid of farting cows and airplanes that fast..."

Now, it may be as others have said, that the goal is to get rid of the farts (or belches) and keep the cow. But if I told you I was going to get rid of my nagging wife, would you assume that I was going to convert her to nag-free?
Luckily in the case of cows it is trivially easy to make them net negative emissions. I wrote an essay about that here

Since that makes them net negative, then it means we actually need more cows! so we go more net negative. However, you are correct, their agenda is to eliminate cows because they completely deny this possibility. It is also incompatible with their huge funding campaign for BeCCS.
 
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That'll never happen. So what's your preference? Dropping fossil fuels, or becoming fossil fuels?

We will never NOT need the energy from coal-fired power plants? Is that what you are saying? I thought all these renewables were going to replace coal quite easily. All the cool countries are doing it.
 
Yes i see the last 2 (numbers 8 and 9)

What about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7 how do they look to you?

What about 6?


The present US government isn't in favour of any of those but on my travels internationally i am slowly seeing some move towards numbers 1, 2, 3 and 7
We can actually reverse Anthropogenic Global Warming. The Green New Deal has absolutely zero point zero chances of accomplishing that goal though, even if they took off the last two. I already explained the flaws. Read it again.

There are at least 6 plans that could possibly work, but the Green New Deal is not one of them
 
solar might be getting cheaper but your still going to have to carpet something like 110,000 square miles (arizona size) just to power Usa

Nobody is claiming that this is a small task. The claim is that it's worth doing in spite of it taking a lot of effort.

Also, the plan is to mix solar with hydro and wind (and I guess geothermal wherever that's applicable.)
 
We can actually reverse Anthropogenic Global Warming. The Green New Deal has absolutely zero point zero chances of accomplishing that goal though, even if they took off the last two. I already explained the flaws. Read it again.

There are at least 6 plans that could possibly work, but the Green New Deal is not one of them

Can you post a link to your favorite 3 of those plans?
 
solar might be getting cheaper but your still going to have to carpet something like 110,000 square miles (arizona size) just to power Usa

Yes i think it is more practical to think of this country by country rather than USA trying to find enough land to power several countries. But some interconnection of national grids especially beteen smaller countries will help economise.
 
We can actually reverse Anthropogenic Global Warming. The Green New Deal has absolutely zero point zero chances of accomplishing that goal though, even if they took off the last two. I already explained the flaws. Read it again.

There are at least 6 plans that could possibly work, but the Green New Deal is not one of them

I have read it again:

1. In the summary of 1 to 9 not allowing nuclear is not mentioned but I am sure that is stated in the more detailed plan. But it seems renewables would be ok to get rid of coal and oil which would be a good start.

2. Agreed

3. Perhaps some additional insulation in the roof space and double glazing would help.

4. Agreed it is encouraging that agriculture is included, but other ideas need to be added.

5. Agreed

6. I have no idea about this.

7. Agreed
 
From the FAQ, which is still posted on NPR's website:

"We set a goal to get to net-zero, rather than zero emissions, in 10 years because we aren't sure we can get rid of farting cows and airplanes that fast..."

Now, it may be as others have said, that the goal is to get rid of the farts (or belches) and keep the cow. But if I told you I was going to get rid of my nagging wife, would you assume that I was going to convert her to nag-free?

Jesus, is English not your first language?

If I told you I wanted to get rid of polluting cars, does that mean I want to get rid of ALL cars?

If I told you I wanted to get rid of steam boats, does that mean I want to get rid of ALL boats?

If I told you I wanted to get rid of rotten apples, does that mean I want to get rid of ALL apples?

Getting rid of farting cows DOES NOT MEAN EXTERMINATING ALL COWS. One have to be either trolling, or literally being intentionally stupid if one really thinks that's what it means.


Read and learn

https://www.independent.ie/business...ave-planet-from-cows-flatulence-37370542.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-the-squeeze-on-global-warming-idUSKCN1MD151

And this one is especially interesting..

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...wn-to-reduce-99-methane-from-cattle-1.3156975


"Researchers at James Cook University in Queensland, Australia, found the addition of less than 2 per cent dried seaweed to a cow’s diet could reduce their methane emissions by as much as 99 per cent.

The study builds on the experience of a Canadian farmer who discovered in 2012 that cattle eating wind-blown seaweed were not just more healthy than others, but enjoyed a longer mating cycle. Researchers Rob Kinley and Alan Fredeen subsequently confirmed the results as well as finding seaweeds and similar plants reduced methane emissions.

This was further substantiated by the Australian study, which was led by Prof of Aquaculture Rocky De Nys in collaboration with the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation. "

I repeat and double down on what I said earlier... Literally NO ONE is advocating the extermination of cows.
 
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Nuclear waste always seemed scarier to me because of the mutagenic possibilities. Plain old poison is bad enough but chromosome damage is maybe even scarier.

But that's just emotions talking. It's not more dangerous than other methods.

We will never NOT need the energy from coal-fired power plants? Is that what you are saying?

No, I said we'll _always_ need the energy. So using that logic we'll never get rid of the plants. We need to do that 25 years ago; more.
 
I believe nuclear power has a bright future: new reactor designs can be meltdown-proof, making them cheaper and safer to operate.
Some designs can use nuclear waste as fuel, dramatically reducing their half-life.
Small-size designs are possible, making them useful for operating in disaster zones etc.
New reactors can also be build with inevitable decommissioning in mind right from the start.
Safe permanent storage of radioactive products is possible at a reasonable price.

BUT:
in the past, we have learned that permanent storage isn't really a good idea: it is much better to keep the waste accessible in case of problems with the storage location or new technologies for processing; dumping barrels of waste in the ocean, as is still common in some places, might not be the worst solution, as long as we can be sure that we can find them again, should we need to, and not have them drift into fishing grounds, as has happened on coasts of southern Europe.
We have no clear

On the other hand, we have a very clear idea how much it costs to build, run and decommission renewable energy projects.
So we are left with comparing a known cost to an unknown cost.
Guest what investors and utility companies are more comfortable investing in.
 
The point about ruining the economy is pretty obvious. Oh, the greenies like to pretend that we're going to march forward into a glorious, environmentally-friendly future together with a booming economy and jobs for all. It's pretty obvious that a serious carbon tax (which is going to be required, never mind that the GND holds off on recommending it for now) is going to have lots of negative effects on the economy. Goods will cost more to transport, which will mean increased prices on the store shelves. At the same time, people will have less money to spend due to the increased gas and other energy prices. Sounds like the mid-late 1970s all over again.
Obvious? No. It's not obvious. The USA borrowed like there was no tomorrow for WWII and experienced the biggest boom in it's history.
 
If climate change was taking place over a period of a few hundred million years (as it has previously), life might be able to adapt biologically through evolutionary change (as it has previously), but at the current rate of change, the temperature on Earth will be unlivable in a matter of a few decades, too fast for life to adapt.

There is absolutely zero chance we can adapt to it. We are at the beginning of the Earth's sixth mass extinction - we are causing it, and we are the only living creatures on the earth with the ability to prevent it. If we fail to do so, we WILL become victims of it.
We can adapt but we can't prevent. How does that work?
 
I believe nuclear power has a bright future: new reactor designs can be meltdown-proof, making them cheaper and safer to operate.

They're already very, very safe, except in Hollywood movies, and in Ukraine.

in the past, we have learned that permanent storage isn't really a good idea:

Huh?

dumping barrels of waste in the ocean, as is still common in some places

Wait, wait. Where are they dumping nuclear waste in the ocean?

On the other hand, we have a very clear idea how much it costs to build, run and decommission renewable energy projects.

On a large scale? Do we?
 
On a large scale? Do we?

1000MW is a sizeable power plant, not the largest by a long way but still large capacity. There are solar and wind power plants of this size. So yes construction and operation are proven.

Decommissioning is already carried out for coal fired power plants, not a major issue and i do not see wind or solar being significantly more difficult. Nuclear is the decommissioning issue.
 
Can you post a link to your favorite 3 of those plans?
I'll do you better than that. This one was up and running in Australia and actually beginning to work until it was shut down and all the scientists at CSIRO fired and entire sections of the best climate and oceanic scientists of the world scattered to the winds. [1]That'll teach em to actually succeed.:rolleyes:
1)FARMING A
CLIMATE CHANGE SOLUTION


This next one is similar, but differs in that it doesn't contain a carbon market necessarily. It bases the motivation to implement the changes to be purely the additional benefits to economies, profits and increases to both primary and agricultural yields and the quality of life that bolsters. So it doesn't even necessarily need any government intervention at all in many cases, except just getting out of the way and letting it happen. In other countries it could need assistance from the government, but mostly in simply education. Teach them how to do it, then just let them do it! The politics is in just removing institutional and governmental barriers. Its downfall is that it is almost too easy and too much like a silver bullet, but requires literally almost every country in the world to agree to this management style on the majority of their land. That's fairly unlikely. Even when any action proven beneficial there will be significant pushback whenever we try to get cooperation from everyone. It's just human nature. And already here there has been significant pushback.
2) RESTORING THE CLIMATE THROUGH CAPTURE
AND STORAGE OF SOIL CARBON THROUGH
HOLISTIC PLANNED GRAZING


I really like some parts of this next one, and think certain other parts require an overly burdensome governmental oversight. But in general it is more comprehensive on the energy side, and less extensive on the sequestration side. It probably contains the least change overall because almost everything gets tweaked a little, but nothing completely eliminated. I just personally chaff at governments dictating so minutely into every detail of our lives, but I must say this one has probably the best chances so far. No doubt it is by far the most comprehensive plan.
3) Drawdown

The next one is a bill in Congress right now, and like the Green New Deal only applies to USA. It has the advantage of bipartisan sponsorship and support. It has the disadvantage of the same sort of socialist idealism infecting the plan as the Green New Deal, just more subtly. It basically sets up a carbon fee and dividend, with carbon sources paying a fee that gets pooled and then split equally by everyone in the country regardless of merit. All that would need to happen is change where the dividend gets paid, (those actually balancing the carbon cycle) and it would be brilliant bill. As it stands though it is still at least workable and at least doesn't grow government, being net zero revenue. Not my favorite, and not comprehensive, but a gazillion times better than the Green New Deal. It's a good start I guess. I personally think they saw what happened to the Aussies and took the wrong lesson from it.
4) Energy Innovation and Carbon Dividend Act

The IPCC plan is pretty good actually. Fairly comprehensive and certainly science backed. It has the advantage of the most worldwide political support. Unfortunately to get that support I believe several important needs were fairly heavily diluted by compromise though. So rather than reversing AGW it can only mitigate and adapt to AGW. World civilization survives though, so the plan is good in that respect.
5) Adaptation and Mitigation

Then there is my own personal favorite as it pulls the best from all of these and leaves out the parts I personally don't think help. However, I could be somewhat biased in that assessment. :D Seeing as how this is my own plan! :p
6) Can we reverse global warming?

I promised you six and I gave you six. There are even more out there though. Maybe the best runner up involves a very large investment in Nuclear energy and multiple small scale hydroelectric plants at the "mill pond" scale rather than the huge mega hydroelectric we are used to, and a relatively smaller investment in solar, wind and geothermal. Nuclear being the large scale base load and the smaller localized renewables filling in the edges where applicable.
 
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They're already very, very safe, except in Hollywood movies, and in Ukraine.
Yes, in the same way airplanes are safe: because we have made every error possible, and patches every reactor accordingly. This is very complicated and expensive, requiring highly trained specialists to operate a reactor safely. A meltdown-proof reactor would require fewer layers of safety and could be operated with fewer personell.

Germany thought they had found a perfect salt mine, only to discover that water leaks in - it will take decades and billions to get the waste out again.

Wait, wait. Where are they dumping nuclear waste in the ocean?
Spain, Russia, China and others
 

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