Cont: Brilliant Light Power Going To Market - Free Energy Generator Part 3

[jrhowell]

I've shown that roughly 200kW of power was required over the course of a minute in order to raise the temperature of the 75kg SunCell containment vessel 400 degrees C.

How do you know that it is even getting hot?

The same effect could be achieved by having a red light inside a translucent box or by shining red spotlights on a solid box.

(Ninja'd)

 

[LTC8K6]

Nah. And I think you're grossly underestimating the power you are seeing on that latest video.
Rather than getting into calculations involving the Stefan Boltzmann law and emissivity (which I've never done) I'll try a more high school approach using fairly conservative estimates.

We assume the following:
1) the SunCell cube is made of iron.
2) the dimensions of the cube are roughly 40cm * 40cm * 40cm.
3) the thickness of the iron walls is roughly 1cm.
4) after one minute the iron has gone from 20 degrees C to an average temperature of 420 degrees C. (Iron starts to glow around 470C ; we'll take a temperature average of the hotter and colder areas and call it 420C.)

Known:
5) The specific heat of iron is .45 (Joules/gram)/Celsius
6) The density of iron is 7.8 grams/cm^3

Derived:
7) The weight of the six sided SunCell Cube is 6 * (40cm)^2 * 1cm * 7.8 g/cm^3 =~ 75kg (from 1,2,3,6)
8) The energy required to raise 75kg of iron 400 degrees C is .45 * 75*10^3 * 400 = 1.35E7 Joules (from 4,5,7)
9) The average power applied over one minute to achieve an energy of 1.35E7 Joules is 1.35E7 Joules /60s = 225kW.

Surprising isn't it. Even if there is 10kW of power going into the SunCell it looks like there is about 20 times more power coming out.

Or it's simple flame heaters inside the box heating the metal rapidly.

 

[JeanTate]

Nah. And I think you're grossly underestimating the power you are seeing on that latest video.
Rather than getting into calculations involving the Stefan Boltzmann law and emissivity (which I've never done) I'll try a more high school approach using fairly conservative estimates.

We assume the following:
1) the SunCell cube is made of iron.
2) the dimensions of the cube are roughly 40cm * 40cm * 40cm.
3) the thickness of the iron walls is roughly 1cm.
4) after one minute the iron has gone from 20 degrees C to an average temperature of 420 degrees C. (Iron starts to glow around 470C ; we'll take a temperature average of the hotter and colder areas and call it 420C.)

Known:
5) The specific heat of iron is .45 (Joules/gram)/Celsius
6) The density of iron is 7.8 grams/cm^3

Derived:
7) The weight of the six sided SunCell Cube is 6 * (40cm)^2 * 1cm * 7.8 g/cm^3 =~ 75kg (from 1,2,3,6)
8) The energy required to raise 75kg of iron 400 degrees C is .45 * 75*10^3 * 400 = 1.35E7 Joules (from 4,5,7)
9) The average power applied over one minute to achieve an energy of 1.35E7 Joules is 1.35E7 Joules /60s = 225kW.

Surprising isn't it. Even if there is 10kW of power going into the SunCell it looks like there is about 20 times more power coming out.

I might as well comment too, though I do hope mine will add something not already covered.

markie, this is the International Skeptics Forum, the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology board.

We have before us a short video, with minimal metadata (provenance is BLP, and that's about it). Even if we had oodles of metadata, the provenance itself requires demands that we treat as highly questionable ... after all, BLP/Mills has promised to have commercial, hydrino-based generators on the market for ~three decades, yet has failed - repeatedly - to deliver.

The absence of metadata means that all four of your assumptions are evidence-free, and thus the rest of your post of zero value, in this ISF board.

As skeptics, we also frequently ask lots of questions; for example, why did BLP not provide any metadata?

I've shown that roughly 200kW of power was required over the course of a minute in order to raise the temperature of the 75kg SunCell containment vessel 400 degrees C.

I fully accept that you think this is what you showed.

Do you, in turn, fully accept that, from a skeptic's perspective, you have shown nothing at all?

From whence comes that minute's worth of 200kW? Someone hypothesizes a baby dragon. Someone else claims burning metals. Perhaps someone else will say it's all from the grid. I think a few reasonable people here are now seriously entertaining something they never thought they would.

And I think you're smoking something.

You know what would likely cause "a few reasonable people here" to "now seriously entertaining something they never thought they would"?

Delivery of working, hydrino-based, prototype generators to at least five truly independent testing facilities! When do you expect that to happen?

 

[LTC8K6]

I wonder about warping and buckling of rapidly spot-heated metal. We don't seem to see any warping or buckling.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Myriad talking to markie:

Two of your figures are highly questionable.

With the amount crap markie posts his whole post could be a lie.

 

[JeanTate]

You are correct given your understanding of 'net force', both when the proton is in the centre and off centre. So for instance if the proton were closer to one side, the flux would be higher at a given point on that side of shell compared to a given point on the opposite side. It might appear then that it would exert more pull on that side. However, because the far side has more surface area, the combined flux on the far side perfectly (as it turns out) balances the smaller and closer and higher flux side. (Note: this is valid for a sphere, not a circle.)

That said, I don't want people to misapprehend that this kind of 'zero net force' translates to no force at all. Rather, the proton is exerting an inward force on the shell. What prevents the shell from collapsing inward is its tangental velocity, which, given the shell's mass, translates to a balancing outward centrifugal 'force'. By orbital mechanics, it is the shell's constant tangental velocity that requires that it is at a fixed distance from the proton. This is the reason for the proton's "preferred" position in the centre, as I've mentioned before. So in summary it is the attractive force of the proton on the electron shell, combined with the tangental velocity of the shell, which fixes the proton in the centre. The shell theorem can take a rest.

I meant to ask you this quite some time ago, but now's a good time too.

markie, for all your posting on the shell theorem and orbitspheres, I think you have failed - utterly - to communicate successfully. As in something like: no one who has responded to any of your posts on this topic has said they accept your ideas (as having any validity, wrt classical physics and some basic mathematics).

How do you yourself feel about this total failure? To what do you ascribe your inability to successfully communicate?

 

[Darat]

I've shown that roughly 200kW of power was required over the course of a minute in order to raise the temperature of the 75kg SunCell containment vessel 400 degrees C.



From whence comes that minute's worth of 200kW? Someone hypothesizes a baby dragon. Someone else claims burning metals. Perhaps someone else will say it's all from the grid. I think a few reasonable people here are now seriously entertaining something they never thought they would.

I must have missed it but where in the video is the details of the power in? And the power out? Or is this meant to be the heat generator?

 

[LTC8K6]

I miss all the arcing and sparking...

 

[Darat]

I miss all the arcing and sparking...

For me it's the mysterious dark matter smoke.

 

[Myriad]

Myriad talking to markie:

With the amount crap markie posts his whole post could be a lie.

Well, of course. I'm just defending my original claim that 5 kW of energy (the amount Markie concedes is likely being put in), applied and visualized in a way familiar to most people (electric stove heating elements), is quite sufficient to explain the incandescence seen in the video. Thus, though of course we cannot rule out red spotlights, hidden fuel burners, higher electrical power input than Markie assumes, hidden parts of the apparatus burning up, or a baby dragon (well, maybe we can rule out the latter), none of those are necessary to explain what the video shows.

Markie challenged my claim based on two claims or assumptions of his own that are contradicted by evidence appearing in the video itself: that the apparatus is room temperature at the start of the clip, and that it is constructed of centimeter-thick iron (or steel which has similar enough physical properties for such an approximation). Replacing those with assumptions more consistent with what actually appears in the video confirms my original assessment.

 

[markie]

Two of your figures are highly questionable.

Why do you think the walls of the cube are a centimeter thick? I have three different reasons for thinking otherwise. First, there is nothing specified about the operation of the cell that requires it to be pressure or vacuum sealed, and the construction of the cell doesn't appear to be a pressure vessel. So there's no reason for that much thickness.

Sure there is reason. Presumably you've seen the video where the plasma has broken through the wall of the cell, or another video where they had to shut it down before the wall was breached. The wall has to be substantial. And look at the lip of the cell that reinforces the cell all around the four vertical walls. That is a good indicator of how thick the wall is. It looks around 1 cm to me but perhaps it may be 1/4 inch, which would be .635 cm.

I'll leave the other two reasons for you to guess. Here's a hint for the second one that fits the electric stove motif from my previous post. Some cooking pots are made with rather thin metal bottoms, and some have very think metal bottoms. The thick ones are heavier, and thus harder to clean and to store; they cost more time and fuel heating up, and they take longer to cool down, risking overcooking if the food isn't removed from the pan promptly. And the thick ones are way more expensive. And yet, experienced cooks and professional chefs prefer the thick ones. Can you guess why?

I really don't see how this is pertinent, sorry.

The second questionable figure is that the vessel starts out at room temperature at the start of the video. The video starts with the equipment (the noise-maker parts, at least) already running and we have no idea how long it's been running for at that moment. The first red glow starts appearing almost immediately. So either the device for some reason is putting out way more heat in the first ten seconds than it is for the rest of the run, or the vessel was already hot (just not yet incandescent) at the start of the video clip. Which do you think is more likely?

You have a point here. I did assume that the video began just after the cell was turned on, and that assumption may well be incorrect. If you look at the 'shakedown' video posted a week before the DoD visit, the device starts glowing roughly 2 minutes after it is turned on:
https://youtu.be/WhR7hfpzJx8
With the recent video, the glowing starts about 20 seconds in. Although the more recent cell appears to be running at higher power we'll ignore that and estimate that the cell had been running for about 180-20 = 160 seconds before the video started. A minute into the video at measurement time is 160 + 60 = 220 seconds after cell startup. So instead of 60 seconds we have 220 seconds to achieve a 400C temperature rise.

Given the change in wall thickness and time to measurement, the power out is adjusted to 225kW * .635 * 60/220 =~ 40kW. That's still a lot of output power.

So let's say at the start of the video it's at an average of 380 C instead, and increases to an average of 470 C (the latter being a higher temperature than you used, but a fair estimate I think).

Let's redo your calculation with a 1 mm thickness and 90 degree increase. That comes to, let's see... 5.06 kW.

(Now, I hope you know better than to reply, "Ah, so you're confirming the video shows sixty Watts of excess hydrino energy!" Because as you mentioned, we actually have no idea, and no way to reliably find out, how much energy is being put in, which makes all these calculations, as much fun as they are, pointless anyhow.)

Your hypothesized 1 mm wall thickness is rather ... odd. But thanks for the relatively constructive feedback.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Sure there is reason. Presumably you've seen the video where the plasma has broken through the wall of the cell, or another video where they had to shut it down before the wall was breached. The wall has to be substantial.

The video is posted by a fraudster. It could be completely faked. There is absolutely every reason to believe it is nothing like what they claim it is because they are pernicious liars.

 

[Myriad]

Sure there is reason. Presumably you've seen the video where the plasma has broken through the wall of the cell, or another video where they had to shut it down before the wall was breached. The wall has to be substantial.

If the steel needs to be thick because it burns away so quickly, then that explains where the "excess" heat is coming from.

 

[markie]

With the recent video, the glowing starts about 20 seconds in. Although the more recent cell appears to be running at higher power we'll ignore that and estimate that the cell had been running for about 180-20 = 160 seconds before the video started.

Correction: that should be 120-20 = 100 seconds before the video started.

A minute into the video at measurement time is 160 + 60 = 220 seconds after cell startup. So instead of 60 seconds we have 220 seconds to achieve a 400C temperature rise.

Given the change in wall thickness and time to measurement, the power out is adjusted to 225kW * .635 * 60/220 =~ 40kW. That's still a lot of output power.

This has to be changed to 100+60 = 160 seconds to measurement after cell startup.
Output power would be 225kW * .635 * 60/160 =~ 50kW.
50kW output and 5kW input would be a COP of about 10, coincidentally just the figure I originally put forth although it would be somewhat higher than that.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Correction: that should be 120-20 = 100 seconds before the video started.



This has to be changed to 100+60 = 160 seconds to measurement after cell startup.
Output power would be 225kW * .635 * 60/160 =~ 50kW.
50kW output and 5kW input would be a COP of about 10, coincidentally just the figure I originally put forth although it would be somewhat higher than that.

And how do you know he didn't just come up with a convoluted way to ignite thermite? Thermite is a pyrotechnic composition of metal powder, which serves as fuel, and metal oxide. But he certainly can get a similar effect with the so called "shots" he used to use. And the titanium wire he used in a different version also makes very hot burns. The molybdenum too.

How do you even know which version of this scam Mills is even claiming to be using since he shows literally nothing.

 

[jonesdave116]

Correction: that should be 120-20 = 100 seconds before the video started.



This has to be changed to 100+60 = 160 seconds to measurement after cell startup.
Output power would be 225kW * .635 * 60/160 =~ 50kW.
50kW output and 5kW input would be a COP of about 10, coincidentally just the figure I originally put forth although it would be somewhat higher than that.

Remind me - when will these things be on the market? The twelfth I'm guessing. Of never.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNNRGa3pKyw

 

[LTC8K6]

I work in the electric furnace industry. 5KW is enough to get a fairly large metal mass cherry red pretty quickly.

Also, have you ever seen a 5Kw induction heater in action?

 

[jonesdave116]

How do you even know which version of this scam Mills is even claiming to be using since he shows literally nothing.

Ahhh, you seem to be under the misapprehension that these videos are meant to be scientific, and therefore impress scientists. It is purely for the poor saps who have invested in this woo.

 

[Myriad]

I work in the electric furnace industry. 5KW is enough to get a fairly large metal mass cherry red pretty quickly.

Also, have you ever seen a 5Kw induction heater in action?

It doesn't even matter what's in the box, as long as it's drawing 5kW. It could be a resistance heater, an induction heater, a bright light bulb, a motor, or a chess-playing computer. It's all turning to 5kW of heat regardless. The importance of visualizing it as a heater is that if you're familiar with those, you know what kind of temperatures to expect given the approximate thermal mass.

 

[MEequalsIxR]

Correction: that should be 120-20 = 100 seconds before the video started.



This has to be changed to 100+60 = 160 seconds to measurement after cell startup.
Output power would be 225kW * .635 * 60/160 =~ 50kW.
50kW output and 5kW input would be a COP of about 10, coincidentally just the figure I originally put forth although it would be somewhat higher than that.

You're talking about this as if it's real.

Unless an independent source unconnected to Mills can verify any of this it's justprattle. I don't know how many times in this part of the thread the idea of independent verification has been brought up but it's been ignored each time or some source named that has some connection to Mills/BLP. That just won't fly.

So to me the baby dragon is just as plausible as hydrinos and in honor of a favorite writer I think we should name said baby dragon Goodboy Bindle Featherstone of Quirm.