Intelligent Design

[Taffer]

But we always begin with "here" though don't we?

Boy do you not understand a single thing about space/time.

Are you saying there are no other dimensions that exist outside of time and space? If not, there where did time and space come from?

No, he is not saying that. He is saying there is no way to know. Perhaps there is, perhaps there isn't. As this is knowledge lies outside the universe (and, therefore, outside of space/time), it is unknowable.

And are you telling me that the script for tomorrow was not written today?

He said nothing of the sort. He simply said that we cannot know anything before the big bang.

 

[Taffer]

And how does what you're asking me differ from Young Earth Creationism? If you don't believe in it, and neither do I, then you have your answer.

YEC's say "how do you know that God didn't create the world 6000 years ago to seem as if it was 4 billion years old."

I said "how do you know that the universe wasn't created a second ago". Aside from a similarly worded question, they are completely different in both content and intention. Please answer the question.

 

[kmortis]

And are you telling me that the script for tomorrow was not written today?

Dude, gimme a break. Me and the other writers are working furiously on TODAY'S rewrites. We haven't even been able to get to tomorrow's. I'm hoping that we might be able to schedule them in...oh...next week thursday. Will that work for you?

This Moment of Dada brought to you by, Brains. Remeber, Brains, they're not just for breakfast anymore.

 

[Taffer]

This seems typical of this thread.

Try answering questions rather than merely responding to them...

Welcome to the forum, DreakNiK.

 

[kmortis]

Welcome to the forum, DreakNiK.

Yes, and welcome to Dealing with Iacchus 101. You have passed your first test, identifying his prime MO.

 

[Iacchus]

Boy do you not understand a single thing about space/time.

And today is the first day of the rest of your life! Yes, the Universe has always been in a state of "beginning" ... before, as well as after the Big Bang.

No, he is not saying that. He is saying there is no way to know. Perhaps there is, perhaps there isn't. As this is knowledge lies outside the universe (and, therefore, outside of space/time), it is unknowable.

Then you have done nothing to assess how time and space got here? These are "real" things you know ...

He said nothing of the sort. He simply said that we cannot know anything before the big bang.

Except to say there was something, of which it was wholly contingent upon, correct?

 

[hammegk]

YEC's say "how do you know that God didn't create the world 6000 years ago to seem as if it was 4 billion years old."

I said "how do you know that the universe wasn't created a second ago". Aside from a similarly worded question, they are completely different in both content and intention.

How do you find them different in either content or intention? The best we can do is "we'll never know", but prefer other assumptions as we have faith we find them more useful.

 

[Iacchus]

So you agree with my assessment? You think that by saying "all things that interact with other things are aware", and then saying "everything is aware" means anything? It is a purely analytical statement, Iacchus, and as such, is useless for describing the universe.

I'm telling you that everything is based upon awareness and, that there would no interaction without it.

Actually, I think you'll find I'm right here too. Of course, for you to do that, you'd have to actually learn about some of the subjects you are posting. As I find that unlikely, I'm not holding my breath.

Well, it sounds to me like you've already made up your mind ... or, would that be "close-mindedness?"

Just because something interacts with something else, does not make it aware, Iacchus. You can do a simple test. Go to sleep. While you are asleep, I will hit you with a hammer as hard as I can. Will you die (assuming I hit you in the place that would cause you to die if you were awake)?

In order for one thing to interact with another, there has to be some factor of awareness.

 

[Belz...]

It would depend on how you view awareness with respect to other awarenesses, that is "existents", and the ability to interact in a way that is not absolutely pre-determined.

I assume you're not including the interraction of rocks with other rocks, right ? Otherwise it'd be like claiming that rocks have consciousness.

 

[kmortis]

Yes, and today is the first day of the rest of your life! Yes, the Universe has always been in a state of "beginning" ... before, as well as after the Big Bang.

Ahh...Argument by Trite. At least you're showing SOME adaptability, Iacchus.

Then you have done nothing to assess how time and space got here? These are "real" things you know ...

space-time is real, true. Their origions, however are unknowable as we haven't devloped the time traveling device that allows us to go back to the Beginning Of It All and see. So, anything that we put forth as a possible BOIA is Pure Specualtion^tm (now with 50% more fiction, for your chewing satisfation).

We are not talking about anyof this tho, are we? No. We have been spending post after post trying to get you to put forth one shred of evidence to back up your multitude of hypothesises.

Except to say there was something, of which it was wholly contingent upon, correct?

No. Iacchus, get REAL close to the screen as I'm only going to say this once.

You ready?

WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT CAME BEFORE THE BIG BANG (or whatever started the Whole General Mish-Mash). Really. We don't. we can NEVER know. We can make some guesses, but we'll NEVER KNOW. Do ya get it yet? The Big Bang itself is a guess. We have some evidence that seems to indicate that an event such as described as the Big Bang did occur, but we'll NEVER KNOW.

Ok, enough seriousness...back to your regular KMortis.

This Serious Moment brought to you by Jesus Christ Superstore.

 

[Belz...]

Hey, did you know that Jesus rode into town on a jackass? Maybe He's riding in on your backs too!

 

[Taffer]

And today is the first day of the rest of your life! Yes, the Universe has always been in a state of "beginning" ... before, as well as after the Big Bang.

Please explain, as as this stands this is a nonsensical statement.

Then you have done nothing to assess how time and space got here? These are "real" things you know ...

No, I have "done nothing". Because it is pointless. There is no evidence of anything before the big bang. Any theories I come up with are impossible to validate with evidence.

Except to say there was something, of which it was wholly contingent upon, correct?

No, not "except to say" that.

 

[Belz...]

Only if we could never know God ...

Yet by virtue of the fact that we exist, and know that we exist, He has manifested Himself before us in everything that we think, say and do.

Only if you assume that he exists. There are other explanations for our "sentience". Again, in the presence of such explanations there is no reason to assume that our "consciousness" is anything but physical.

 

[Belz...]

Yes, in fact I believe it does, at the atomic or, sub-atomic level.

I'm sure you do, otherwise that would invalidate your statement.

 

[Taffer]

How do you find them different in either content or intention?

Well, firstly my question is a philosophical problem, not an argument for design.

The best we can do is "we'll never know", but prefer other assumptions as we have faith we find them more useful.

No. The best we can do is "we can never know". This is a different thing.

 

[Belz...]

Through my ability to access the image of it in the present.

That image could easily have been implanted, matrix-style. How could you tell the difference between a real memory and an implanted one ?

 

[Taffer]

I'm telling you that everything is based upon awareness and, that there would no interaction without it.

Do you have any evidence to offer to validate your statement?

Well, it sounds to me like you've already made up your mind ... or, would that be "close-mindedness?"

Yes, I've already made my mind up. But I am not "close-minded", as I will change my mind in the presence of differing evidence. Do you have any?

In order for one thing to interact with another, there has to be some factor of awareness.

Do you have any evidence to support your statement?

 

[Belz...]

You cannot deny that the machines are not interacting with something else and, that there's some factor of "awareness" that allows them to do this.

I indeed deny that they are not interacting. they are interacting, but there is no awareness or free will involved. They are machines. By saying that only conscious things can interact with others, you're claiming that particles are self-aware!

 

[Belz...]

Exactly! Which is why the Big Bang -- hence that which came after the Big Bang -- is contingent wholly upon that which happened prior to it. Now, you see, if we could at least agree upon that much, then perhaps we can begin to speculate on what existed prior to that?

I'm sorry, you don't understand. BEFORE the big bang there was only chaos. Chaos is purely random and is not contingent on anything. Any discussion of causality "prior" to the universe is meaningless.

 

[Taffer]

In order for one thing to interact with another, there has to be some factor of awareness.

So if I come up while you are sleeping and hit you with a hammer, then you will not die?