Hawking says there are no gods

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't believe that's correct. The idea that time, whatever it is, is interwoven with motion and the speed of light is fairly solid.

Speed alters time, for sure, so that (to me, at least) means it's real and definitely not just a figment of our imagination (even though our perception of time might be more imaginary or illusion than real.)

Not disagreeing with you. It is a very interesting subject. I like the definition put forth by a scientist whose name escapes me now: "Time is what stops everything from happening at once."

The thing about gods that gets me is that they used to be so easily observed . . . in fact, it was extremely common for them to hold conversations with us mere mortals . . . and for them to have sex, and procreate, with the really good looking mortals. Then they got quieter, and quieter, until now when there isn't even an echo of them. Maybe they all just got tired from all that important work and are taking a nap.

Or maybe they realise that science has it figured out, that we are doing a better job in the world than they did, and we just don't need them anymore so they headed off for greener pastures.
 
Don't be condescending. Just answer the questions regarding by what criteria you judged yourself to be an expert philosopher.



You can't be pinned down because you evade meaningful questions and respond to everything with heaping helpings of home-cooked gibberish which you try to say is philosophy.

Just answer my questions without all the diversions, if you please.

Philosophy is:
Metaphysics as knowledge beyond "das Ding an Sich"(Kant) is not knowledge, but beliefs/assumptions/axiom/what ever. It can be done differently, but it is always someone thinking it makes sense.

Ontology as existence/being is not a property of things. It is an idea. Ontology is the catalog of core parts in the human experience. (sort of Kant)

Logic is the limit of logic as much as how it works. Connects to rationalism. Pure reason always operate on its own and says not about the rest of the world. Logic is a process in a brain, a behavior. E.g. non(A or non-A) only applies to something is a sense and in time and space. The limit is that it can't tell if other human is intellectually wrong, but only that they think differently. A belief is not wrong in itself. It is wrong, because how you reason about it. Back to your "useful".
The combination of logic and rationalism fell out off favor after Descartes. (And again Kant).

Epistemology as justified true belief runs into the old skeptics, Protagoras and Agrippa. Hence the assumption of a natural world as it can't be proved and the reliance on experience(can't remember that philosopher, think it was Locke), though not all experience are sensory. Hence the problem of qualia and how it relates words like "useful" and so on.
Truth relates to how you view words and if you treat truth as correspondence, coherence or redundant.
Then there is the difference between foundationalism and skepticism. In practice it is what axioms you chose. There are no self-evident truths from which everything else follows. Skepticism is in practice the ability to check your assumptions and see if you missed anything and made any fallacies; back to logic. Descartes tried to use it to find something self-evident, he did, but nothing followed from that. The problem with self-evident truth is that it is tautological.

Ethics. Well, can you do with truth or not? There are other issues, but the main one is meta-ethics and realism versus non-realism. Here Protagoras is on again. In practice all attempts to do it with truth, is that it is a fact that humans can hurt each and it doesn't become wrong, just because you say so.

Now historically skepticism went out with the rise of Christianity and reason took seat( there is more but the Middle Ages are not my strong suit).
After the Enlightenment skepticism comes back and so do moral relativism ,later though.
But there is shift in workload. Science get a part of it and differs from philosophy. The modern times; Hume and the other skeptics. Kant, not much of the continental stuff, because it is playing with words, though I have done basic existentialism. Crossed path with positivism. Even done Ayn Rand.

Now my blind spot is that I have be around even with the Middle Ages, but is not systematic. It comes from someone claiming something and then looking it up.
On other other hand I have been around metaphysics and know its limits. The same with ontology, logic, epistemology and ethics. But what colors me, is that I got taken in by skepticism. False is as important as true.

As for meeting a standard, well the standard is reason. The problem is if it has limits? Philosophy is thinking(reason and logic) with words and how words relate to the universe if at all?!! Back to axioms and naturalism and what not.

Am I a true philosopher? No, but I pay attention and can change my mind.
At the core I know I got a part of the big picture right.
There is no Knowledge.
Metaphysics is an unknown.
Logic is to learn to do it as much as not how to do it.
Epistemology is that rationalism is a dead end and that empiricism is more that observation, also feelings.
Ethics is to combine reason and feelings and to know the limits. All axioms in ethics are emotional in a sense. Reason you use to check if you have overlook something in your axioms and combine with psychology and so on.

So what is it, that makes philosophy hard? You have to check your assumptions and suspend judgment. It is about following truth and discover its limits. The truth is that there is no Truth. The capital version is the holy grail of philosophy. The universal methodology that answers all. That idea died with Descartes, but it lives in some humans still. It takes practice to learn to known that there is no universal methodology that answers all.

So do I do philosophy with a bias? Yes, I am old-school skeptic. I don't believe in any claim of Knowledge, Reason, Logic and so. It all has limits.

Now what do I want from you? Then same that you want for me. Follow the facts. But because I am old-school, I mistrust any claim of a universal methodology that answers all and that includes Science, but not science.

Regards
 
Last edited:
What is your source? Appart from Walt Disney Pictures.
My main source: Jean-Pierre Vernant: Mythe et religion en Grèce ancienne, Paris, Éditions du Seuil, 1990. Among others.
Try the Wikipedia article on Greek gods for a quick reference.
 
- It made the world and it lives in the magic cave
- We took torches and went down there. There's nothing there.

- Oh, no, it lives on the really high mountain over there
- Yeah, we got crampons and ropes and went up there - There's nuttin.

- Oh, no, sorry, it made the world and lives in the sky
- We built a really big rocket and an absolutely awesome telescope. There's nothing there but spinning rocks.

- Oh, no, it's everywhere, you just can see, hear, smell, taste, touch or in any other way interact with it.
- Sure it is...
- See! You woin't go look for it, it must exist.
- You're a credulous idiot. How much money did you give the priest?

The worst thing a person can do in a debate is to belittle the opponent. If you want to argue with a cultured and intelligent Christian, don't treat him as if he were a six-year-old boy or a sanctimonius. You will end up in the most frightening ridicule. Like believing that a telescope serves to prove that heaven doesn't exist. I am an atheist and a hard one, but sometimes I feel ashamed to be accompanied by certain colleagues.
 
Philosophy is:
Metaphysics as knowledge beyond "das Ding an Sich"(Kant) is not knowledge, but beliefs/assumptions/axiom/what ever. It can be done differently, but it is always someone thinking it makes sense.

Ontology as existence/being is not a property of things. It is an idea. Ontology is the catalog of core parts in the human experience. (sort of Kant)

Logic is the limit of logic as much as how it works. Connects to rationalism. Pure reason always operate on its own and says not about the rest of the world. Logic is a process in a brain, a behavior. E.g. non(A or non-A) only applies to something is a sense and in time and space. The limit is that it can't tell if other human is intellectually wrong, but only that they think differently. A belief is not wrong in itself. It is wrong, because how you reason about it. Back to your "useful".
The combination of logic and rationalism fell out off favor after Descartes. (And again Kant).

Epistemology as justified true belief runs into the old skeptics, Protagoras and Agrippa. Hence the assumption of a natural world as it can't be proved and the reliance on experience(can't remember that philosopher, think it was Locke), though not all experience are sensory. Hence the problem of qualia and how it relates words like "useful" and so on.
Truth relates to how you view words and if you treat truth as correspondence, coherence or redundant.
Then there is the difference between foundationalism and skepticism. In practice it is what axioms you chose. There are no self-evident truths from which everything else follows. Skepticism is in practice the ability to check your assumptions and see if you missed anything and made any fallacies; back to logic. Descartes tried to use it to find something self-evident, he did, but nothing followed from that. The problem with self-evident truth is that it is tautological.

Ethics. Well, can you do with truth or not? There are other issues, but the main one is meta-ethics and realism versus non-realism. Here Protagoras is on again. In practice all attempts to do it with truth, is that it is a fact that humans can hurt each and it doesn't become wrong, just because you say so.

Now historically skepticism went out with the rise of Christianity and reason took seat( there is more but the Middle Ages are not my strong suit).
After the Enlightenment skepticism comes back and so do moral relativism ,later though.
But there is shift in workload. Science get a part of it and differs from philosophy. The modern times; Hume and the other skeptics. Kant, not much of the continental stuff, because it is playing with words, though I have done basic existentialism. Crossed path with positivism. Even done Ayn Rand.

Now my blind spot is that I have be around even with the Middle Ages, but is not systematic. It comes from someone claiming something and then looking it up.
On other other hand I have been around metaphysics and know its limits. The same with ontology, logic, epistemology and ethics. But what colors me, is that I got taken in by skepticism. False is as important as true.

As for meeting a standard, well the standard is reason. The problem is if it has limits? Philosophy is thinking(reason and logic) with words and how words relate to the universe if at all?!! Back to axioms and naturalism and what not.

Am I a true philosopher? No, but I pay attention and can change my mind.
At the core I know I got a part of the big picture right.
There is no Knowledge.
Metaphysics is an unknown.
Logic is to learn to do it as much as not how to do it.
Epistemology is that rationalism is a dead end and that empiricism is more that observation, also feelings.
Ethics is to combine reason and feelings and to know the limits. All axioms in ethics are emotional in a sense. Reason you use to check if you have overlook something in your axioms and combine with psychology and so on.

So what is it, that makes philosophy hard? You have to check your assumptions and suspend judgment. It is about following truth and discover its limits. The truth is that there is no Truth. The capital version is the holy grail of philosophy. The universal methodology that answers all. That idea died with Descartes, but it lives in some humans still. It takes practice to learn to known that there is no universal methodology that answers all.

So do I do philosophy with a bias? Yes, I am old-school skeptic. I don't believe in any claim of Knowledge, Reason, Logic and so. It all has limits.

Now what do I want from you? Then same that you want for me. Follow the facts. But because I am old-school, I mistrust any claim of a universal methodology that answers all and that includes Science, but not science.

Regards

That is one of the longest evasions I've seen.
 
What is your source? Appart from Walt Disney Pictures.


1. Are you arguing that a literal actual religious belief in the Gods of Olympus is rational?

2. Are you arguing that it wasn't once a common, widespread belief held by people with the same passion and fervor as religious beliefs of today?

If you're not nothing else you are saying matters, it's just more hair splitting and stalling and "keep the debate going, that way I didn't lose."
 
Try the Wikipedia article on Greek gods for a quick reference.

Wikipedia against Jean-Pierre Vernant! I should have imagined. :o:o

For a deeper understanding of what the gods were, I advise you to read chapter V et seq. of Jean-Pierre Vernant: Myth and Society in Ancient Greece. You can see it here: https://philarchive.org/archive/TIEOONv1 .
Youre welcome.
 
Last edited:
That is one of the longest evasions I've seen.

I surmise it's to hide the part buried in the middle where he admits he's not a philosopher by any common definition. True to form, when he's cornered Tommy tries to change what words mean.

I still have no answer to my questions, though. To what extent has his mastery of philosophy been measured and adjudicated independently? By what criteria?
 
The worst thing a person can do in a debate is to belittle the opponent. If you want to argue with a cultured and intelligent Christian, don't treat him as if he were a six-year-old boy or a sanctimonius. You will end up in the most frightening ridicule. Like believing that a telescope serves to prove that heaven doesn't exist. I am an atheist and a hard one, but sometimes I feel ashamed to be accompanied by certain colleagues.

"I don't have an intellectual counter, so I'm just going to call my opponent 'mean' and hope that works."
 
The worst thing a person can do in a debate is to belittle the opponent.


No it isn't.


If you want to argue with a cultured and intelligent Christian,

Could you introduce me to one?


don't treat him as if he were a six-year-old boy

If someone has a belief that magic can be real and there's really a magic being that made the world and is looking over us to ensure we act correctly and loves us so that he's prepared to damn us to an eternety of torture if we doin't love him back, then they have the mental capacity of a six year old and I will address them accordingly.



or a sanctimonius.

Interesting and deeply ironic choice of word.


You will end up in the most frightening ridicule.

There's plenty of it to be had.

Like believing that a telescope serves to prove that heaven doesn't exist.

It certainly adds to the body of evidence. If you tell me something's in the sky, I'm going to use a telescope to look for it and then come back and tell you that it isn't there.

I am an atheist and a hard one, but sometimes I feel ashamed to be accompanied by certain colleagues.


Really? I am ashamed to live on a planet where there are so many with unfounded beliefs that cause massive harm and we allow these utterly ridiculous beliefs to pass without the ridicule they would attract if they weren't labelled 'religion'

This is a place for critical thinking. Those that come here believing in fairies, gods, wizrds, witches, Pegasus, Zeus, Jehovah or any other damn fictional, mystical being are going to get, from me, all the ridicule they deserve.
 
Last edited:
1. Are you arguing that a literal actual religious belief in the Gods of Olympus is rational?

2. Are you arguing that it wasn't once a common, widespread belief held by people with the same passion and fervor as religious beliefs of today?

If you're not nothing else you are saying matters, it's just more hair splitting and stalling and "keep the debate going, that way I didn't lose."
Are you talking to me?
 
Could you introduce me to one?

If someone has a belief that magic can be real and there's really a magic being that made the world and is looking over us to ensure we act correctly and loves us so that he's prepared to damn us to an eternety of torture if we doin't love him back, then they have the mental capacity of a six year old and I will address them accordingly.
(...)

This is a place for critical thinking. Those that come here believing in fairies, gods, wizrds, witches, Pegasus, Zues, Jehovah or any other damn fictional, mystical being are going to get, from me, all the ridicule they deserve.

Paul Ricoeur.
None of the nonsense you're saying has anything to do with him.
Simone Weil is easier to read.
 
Last edited:
Are you talking to me?

Oh I don't know let's redefine the word "talking" for 20 pages into ways nobody has every actually used it just for kicks and you can tell me what some philosopher from 400 years ago said about it.

Yes I'm talking you. Grow up.

You are just massively snobbish and rude for someone who wants to nanny other people about being mean.
 
Last edited:
Paul Ricoeur.
None of the nonsense you're saying has anything to do with him.

Well

1 - He's dead

2 - if he believes in any way in an interventionist god, then all the above applies to him. If he believes i a non-interventionist god, then he's just making up stories and I'd like to introduce you to the IPU or the FSM

3 - If you'd like me to take his views into account then you're going to have to present them to me, as I'm utterly sure you're aware.

4 - Any attempt to try to send me off to educate myself will be met with the appropriate response.

5 - You're suddenly a lot less loquacious than you were.
 
There's still nothing more intellectually meaningful going on here from the God bothering side than trying to act smart by proving a dog has 5 legs by calling its tail a leg and telling the people who point that's nothing but stupid word games they are uneducated and mean for not playing along.
 
If a "something" exists outside of the known universe and has no interaction with anything inside the universe, and specifically the human race, why would it be called a "god"? A supernova millions of light years away that sends a gamma ray burst directly at earth would be more god-like than the undefined hypotheticals being discussed in much of this thread.

Human theists all believe that their particular god interacts with the human race. The actions of these theists based on their religions have a direct impact on most humans so the non-existence of the gods they believe in is worth discussing.

Discussing what may exist outside the universe before determining that there is an "outside the universe" is as useful as discussing the color of a unicorn's horn.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom