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Hawking says there are no gods

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There are people who I believe are experts in philosophy. I would count, for example, the professor of philosophy who sat on the board of a theater I performed in. He has several degrees in philosophy from schools we can verify do a good job of testing the knowledge of students upon whom they confer degrees. He taught at a school that imposed similar standards.

My question here is simply aimed at pointing out the difference between Tommy's claim and Skeptic Ginger's. The big difference is whether one's mastery of the field has been measured according to a common standard. A nursing degree comes only after one demonstrates proficiency according to a standard agreed upon by nurses and those who teach nursing. Similar standards exist for philosophy, if someone wants demonstrate mastery in that.

The problem is that is no overall standard in philosophy like nursing.
The former that an element of individuality which are not present in nursing.

So what is a common standard in philosophy?
If 2 philosophers can't agree on say meta-ethics, does that mean one of them is not a philosopher?
You are from an exact science. Philosophy is not an exact science, because it in effect has an element of limited cognitive relativism. And no, nothing is not real nor unreal.
The words "real" and "unreal" have no objective referent. The word "elephant" refers to elephants and when you think of elephants and use the word "elephant", there are no elephants in your brain.
That is not so for the words "real" and "unreal"; they are only in brains, hence no objective referent.
BTW the same is the case for the word "existence".
 
The problem is that is no overall standard in philosophy like nursing.

That kind of goes beyond "problem" to "fatal flaw."

It's just a near-meaningless umbrella term that covers everything from classical schools of thought to your random gibberish all shoved under the same term and defended as the same thing.

So we have people like... well you screaming "It's philosophy!" as a defense when people ask you to please stop tossing your word salad on the table while they are trying to eat.
 
So we can't consider models where time existed before there was a big bang?

BTW I'm not "ruling IN" anything.
Well, you said you weren't ruling anything out either.

I wasn't trying to straw man you, but your post sounds like anything is under consideration until it can be ruled out.

Surely science is a path, a progression. Even when we have multiple different hypothises about a phenomenum that still have to be proven, they are not plucked from thin air - which is what we are allowed to do if we are "not ruling anything out". They would be models that work with (most of) the current existing and accepted models of reality - i.e. they build on what we already know.

And that is why a god is not required (yet), and until we see some evidence - or infact any evidence that a god or gods can even exist, we shouldn't be postulating that one is responsible for creating the universe.
 
The problem is that is no overall standard in philosophy like nursing.

Since you're evading the question of measuring and adjudicating knowledge, I conclude you don't want those questions asked of you. From that defensiveness I hypothesize you have no formal education in philosophy and that your mastery of the field has never been measured. As to how that is customarily done, see my previous posts.

The problem is that you've made a claim to expertise and used that as a premise to a dismissive argument. Reading the thread, I don't see many here who consider you competent in philosophy. Hence we need to discover what exactly you mean by "25 years of studying philosophy." To what extent can we be assured it grants you a basis of understanding from which you can give a credible sweeping dismissal? One that would have evidentiary value.

You could have answered my question simply and honestly. You could have said, "I don't have a degree in philosophy; all my study has been personal." We could have better known from that to what degree we can trust your knowledge. Instead you've been evasive. You tried to deflect the question in a snarky way, then you tried to argue that it was meaningless. (It isn't.) Why the dishonesty? Were you trying to create an impression you knew wasn't strictly true? To what extent, then, are you arguing here in good faith? Do you really have expert philosophical insight into how Stephen Hawking views the existence of a god? Or are you just trying to look cool? If the latter, then to what extent are you justified in expecting people to engage you?
 
Will answer later. RL calls.

Why does it always call you away just as you've been cornered in something that didn't work out well for you?

You clearly don't have a good idea of what science is. And now it's becoming clear you don't have a good idea of what philosophy is. You keep touting some sort of expertise in the field. Your latest riposte to Skeptic Ginger fits a pattern. You write many long, irrelevant posts which amount to gibberish, and people point this out. You explain yourself by insinuating you are an expert in philosophy and that if others can't make out your point, or if they disagree with it, then they just aren't as well read as you. The conscientious reader would wonder whether that's a bluff. And sure enough, when they ask you questions designed to determine whether you really are the expert you claim, you offer only variations on "Please don't ask me that." You don't seem to see that evasion is an answer by itself. As a result, your critics have no obligation to accept an answer from you that amounts to, "Because I'm the expert, that's why." People who recognize your gibberish for what it is are not secretly needing to be "taught" by you, so I would urge you to look for a different strategy.
 
There's an irony in playing the "Oh crap I left the stove on" excuse when you're entire argument is a thousand word salad variations on "reality isn't really real."
 
Since you're evading the question of measuring and adjudicating knowledge, I conclude you don't want those questions asked of you. From that defensiveness I hypothesize you have no formal education in philosophy and that your mastery of the field has never been measured. As to how that is customarily done, see my previous posts.

The problem is that you've made a claim to expertise and used that as a premise to a dismissive argument. Reading the thread, I don't see many here who consider you competent in philosophy. Hence we need to discover what exactly you mean by "25 years of studying philosophy." To what extent can we be assured it grants you a basis of understanding from which you can give a credible sweeping dismissal? One that would have evidentiary value.

You could have answered my question simply and honestly. You could have said, "I don't have a degree in philosophy; all my study has been personal." We could have better known from that to what degree we can trust your knowledge. Instead you've been evasive. You tried to deflect the question in a snarky way, then you tried to argue that it was meaningless. (It isn't.) Why the dishonesty? Were you trying to create an impression you knew wasn't strictly true? To what extent, then, are you arguing here in good faith? Do you really have expert philosophical insight into how Stephen Hawking views the existence of a god? Or are you just trying to look cool? If the latter, then to what extent are you justified in expecting people to engage you?
Boom!!
 

You will now undoubtedly waffle on about metaphors, we need to interpret x as z and so on. By all means do that but then you are no longer talking about the Zeus that people claimed existed.
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What people do you speak? Greek religion had no dogma and it was possible many ways to believe in the same gods. There were superstitious believers, spiritual believers and philosophical believers in gods. In addition, there were artistic or literary images of gods that were very different of popular religion. The human image of gods was very different of actual worships. Homer’s gods were not the gods of people. And the idea of an Olympic palace with columns like temples is very ulterior to helenism. The residence of gods was something ethereal that was not refuted by the fact that someone could go to the mountain without seeing any material building.

If someone had presented some thing as Google-Earth against the existence of gods, he would have been criticised by the educated classes as a childish thing. The same way that Celsus criticised those that believed that gods are into their statues. Sheer superstition.

The fall of Greek religion was not caused by some kind of rationality or science, but by the attack of the all powerful Christian church.
 
The fall of Greek religion was not caused by some kind of rationality or science, but by the attack of the all powerful Christian church.

And none of that changes the fact that "There's a bunch of all powerful demigod deities on the top of a nearby, easily claimable mountain we just never bother to go check" is no longer accepted as true or worth discussing or handwringing over.

While you and yours spend all your time hairsplitting over meaningless distinctions as to the verbiage of how we say "They aren't there" as if it matters it doesn't change the fact we no longer believe in them, the fact that Gods people used to believe in with the same fervor as anything today have been taken off the table as far as rational discussion goes is a thing that happens.

We've disproven countless Gods in every way that matters. All you're left with is tone policing and nitpicking the exact way people word it.
 
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There's an irony in playing the "Oh crap I left the stove on" excuse when you're entire argument is a thousand word salad variations on "reality isn't really real."

One of which is his excuse for not needing to qualify as a philosopher. Specifically he's trying to conflate the goals of philosophy with the standards of competence as a philosopher. No, if two philosophers disagree then we don't say one of them must be incompetent. But that doesn't stop us from qualifying a student of philosophy according to his ability, for example, to summarize that disagreement, to state the lines of thought that lead to it, to interpret the disagreement according to yet a third line of reasoning, or to propose ways in which the disagreement might be resolved. Tommy is trying to say that because philosophy is based on disagreement more often than not, it must therefore be meaningless to ask by what standards one qualifies as a philosopher.

Tommy proposes that "studying" it for 25 years does. That is, hidden behind his claim is the premise that his study qualifies him in some way to speak more authoritatively or correctly that other people on whatever philosophy he suggests trumps science in the search for God. He simply cannot make that claim without accepting that proficiency in philosophy is a thing, and that it can be measured. He already measured his proficiency and Skeptic Ginger's, and concluded that he measured more favorably. Therefore his new claim that there is no objective basis by which to measure philosophical prowess is just ad hoc revision. Yes, there exists a standard by which proficiency in philosophy can be measured in just the same way we measure proficiency in nursing or bread-making. Here is one: https://philosophy.columbia.edu/content/major-requirements.

I suspect Tommy knows such standards exist. He proposes to ignore them because he says those are standards more appropriate to "exact" sciences. Although he doesn't say what those are, I suspect he means sciences such as nursing, since he specifically means to contrast his expertise with Skeptic Ginger's. As soon as someone makes a claim to expertise and then follows it up by waffling over how such claims are or should be measured, or what it means to be an expert, the conscientious reader should proceed with skepticism and caution.

I was pleased to grow up in a town that hosted a world-renowned institute of baking. As such, many of my acquaintances were expert bakers. They learned the science of baking: biology, chemistry, heat transfer, etc. They could also bake the most fabulous things. They were popular at holiday parties for the obvious reason. It was fascinating to hear them talk about what they did in the science of baking, something that not everyone would necessarily consider an "exact" science.

I know this. My personal library includes well over 30 centimeters of shelf space devoted to books on baking, all of which I have read. Nevertheless despite my efforts I am unable to produce a passable loaf of bread. My family disagrees. Mindful of my feelings, they chew through my offerings and give me the encouragement I can expect from such mindfulness, and which I frankly need to keep at it. If I had to sell my wares to earn my living, I would probably be better off using my loaves as shoes. Why? Because in spite of variety and proclivity, there exists an objective standard of bread-making, and I fail it.

This is not to say that every self-starter must inevitably fail. It is, however, to say that claiming vicinity with the subject or a self-directed program of study of it does not equate to a meaningful claim to authority. The sine qua non of pudding is the eating of it. One of my colleagues in science outreach has qualifications very similar to mine. He has a degree in engineering from a prestigious English university. He has worked for years in aerospace at a well-known company. He also happens to be an expert baker. How do we know this? Because he submitted his skills to a televised test judged by people who are well-known experts in the art of baking. And prevailed. He is entirely self-taught as a baker, but there has been an adjudication of his professed skills according to reasonable standards. Our engineer-cum-baker also professes proficiency in music and theater. And he demonstrates proficiency by performing in auditioned venues. Me too. I'm a musician and an actor, the latter being almost entirely self-taught. I audition for, and win, parts that pay, and which are seen by audiences numbering in the tens of thousands. Similarly I compete for, and win, paying gigs. These are useful (if not entirely objective) measurements of proficiency.

When one studies philosophy with the aim of being proficient enough at it to make one's living at it -- which generally means speaking, writing, and teaching competitively -- one is subjected to a program of study suggested by the link I gave above. In such a program, the student will be assigned readings he might not encounter in a self-devised program. He will be given responsibility for subjects beyond those that pique his interest. But more importantly, he will be tested on his comprehensive knowledge of them and his ability to reason among them. It is this adjudication which sets apart the casual student from the serious student, regardless of what auspices he learns under. Sadly, badly-tossed word salads in an open forum do not substitute for the rigors one would normally associate with a more formal program of study. Hence when Tommy says he has "studied," and then fogs up the parameters by which such a study would be measured, we simply reject his argument that his "25 years of study" amounts to something by which he can simply sweep other people's points aside.
 
I've long suspected that the way the word, not the exact concepts but the words, "science" are vilified and "Philosophy" are sanctified by so many on this board is that they see one as having standards and the other as not.

It's not about science or philosophy per se in the exact academic sense, it's about wanting to elevate the methodology that they think leaves them the least chance of being wrong.
 
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