Elizabeth Warren Ancestry Thread

[Dr. Keith]

Not my monkey, not my circus.

BTW, I've stolen that IRL. Very useful. Thank you.

 

[LSSBB]

BTW, I've stolen that IRL. Very useful. Thank you.

It's a great Polish saying.

nie mój cyrk, nie moje małpy

 

[theprestige]

BTW, I've stolen that IRL. Very useful. Thank you.

You're welcome.

FWIW, here's why I think Warren probably knew the directory was for minority recruiting.

First of all, the timeline. She listed herself in the directory for several years prior to getting hired by Harvard. Following her hire (and Harvard mysteriously getting the impression she was a Native American and a person of color), she stopped listing herself in the directory.

Second, her proffered explanation. She has said that she listed herself because she thought the directory was used for minority networking. But other than listing herself in the directory, she hasn't shown much interest at all in minority networking. It doesn't make sense that an intelligent law professor would list themselves expecting a certain result, and then not notice that they weren't getting the result for several years. It also doesn't make sense that taking this one ineffectual action would be the only real attempt they made to get the result they desired.

"I thought it was for networking and I didn't find out it was for recruiting until after I coincidentally got hired at Harvard (who coincidentally thought I was a minority) and I coincidentally didn't really put any effort into networking anyway" isn't a very plausible scenario, to me.

So if the question is, "did Warren know the directory was used primarily for minority recruitment?", then my answer is "probably yes".

 

[theprestige]

I mean, she could have used the directory for networking. She wouldn't even have to list herself. She could just crack it open, find someone on the list, and give them a call: "You're a minority law professor; I'm a minority law professor. Let's get together and talk about minority law stuff."

And then the other law professor could say, "actually, this directory is for minority recruiting. Unless you're an Ivy League law program or a high-profile legal firm looking for a diversity hire, you really shouldn't be calling me. If you're really interested in minority networking, here's some resources I recommend." And Warren would decide not to list herself after all, and pursue other networking opportunities instead.

Later that night, staring sleepily into the fridge, the other law professor might even think, "huh... If she's a minority, wouldn't she already know about her minority's interest groups and networking resources?"

And years later, we'd be reading interviews in the New York Times with Native American activists and community leaders, saying "I don't know about her ancestry, and I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, Elizabeth Warren's long involvement in the Native American community - her network of contacts and history of engagement - puts her bona fides beyond question."

 

[wareyin]

You're welcome.

FWIW, here's why I think Warren probably knew the directory was for minority recruiting.

First of all, the timeline. She listed herself in the directory for several years prior to getting hired by Harvard. Following her hire (and Harvard mysteriously getting the impression she was a Native American and a person of color), she stopped listing herself in the directory.

Since the Harvard faculty involved in her hiring claim that they were unaware of her NA ancestry, and never considered it, I think you might be a bit confused on this.

Second, her proffered explanation. She has said that she listed herself because she thought the directory was used for minority networking. But other than listing herself in the directory, she hasn't shown much interest at all in minority networking. It doesn't make sense that an intelligent law professor would list themselves expecting a certain result, and then not notice that they weren't getting the result for several years. It also doesn't make sense that taking this one ineffectual action would be the only real attempt they made to get the result they desired.

"I thought it was for networking and I didn't find out it was for recruiting until after I coincidentally got hired at Harvard (who coincidentally thought I was a minority) and I coincidentally didn't really put any effort into networking anyway" isn't a very plausible scenario, to me.

And your understanding of what networking Warren did decades ago will be 1)better than your understanding of her hire at Harvard and 2)supported by evidence? Hopefully...

So if the question is, "did Warren know the directory was used primarily for minority recruitment?", then my answer is "probably yes".

You guys still haven't explained how information gained after someone is hired is used for recruitment of that person.

 

[Dr. Keith]

You're welcome.

FWIW, here's why I think Warren probably knew the directory was for minority recruiting.

Just from the outset, you are not saying you have any evidence that she actually knew the directory was for minority recruiting. On that we agree.

I also think we can agree that we see this whole issue differently. I've signed up for tons of stuff over my career that should have been useful for networking but actually wasn't or I didn't actually follow through on because networking has never actually been important to my career. Networking is one of those things we are taught is important but we quickly learn isn't actually important. It is something people who aren't busy do to comfort themselves during slow times. Busy people just never follow through on networking, unless they are in sales.

All that is to say, why assume that she was lying when "just too busy" is just as likely.

"I thought it was for networking and I didn't find out it was for recruiting until after I coincidentally got hired at Harvard (who coincidentally thought I was a minority) and I coincidentally didn't really put any effort into networking anyway" isn't a very plausible scenario, to me.

To me, that is very plausible. Actually, most likely.

So if the question is, "did Warren know the directory was used primarily for minority recruitment?", then my answer is "probably yes".

And mine is still: I see no evidence of that.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I mean, she could have used the directory for networking. She wouldn't even have to list herself. She could just crack it open, find someone on the list, and give them a call: "You're a minority law professor; I'm a minority law professor. Let's get together and talk about minority law stuff."

And then the other law professor could say, "actually, this directory is for minority recruiting. Unless you're an Ivy League law program or a high-profile legal firm looking for a diversity hire, you really shouldn't be calling me. If you're really interested in minority networking, here's some resources I recommend." And Warren would decide not to list herself after all, and pursue other networking opportunities instead.

Later that night, staring sleepily into the fridge, the other law professor might even think, "huh... If she's a minority, wouldn't she already know about her minority's interest groups and networking resources?"

And years later, we'd be reading interviews in the New York Times with Native American activists and community leaders, saying "I don't know about her ancestry, and I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, Elizabeth Warren's long involvement in the Native American community - her network of contacts and history of engagement - puts her bona fides beyond question."

If she were trying to run for office based on her bona fides as a Native American this would make a lot more sense. Maybe if she had returned to Oklahoma she would have gone in that direction, but that is not where life took her.

 

[LSSBB]

I mean, she could have used the directory for networking. She wouldn't even have to list herself. She could just crack it open, find someone on the list, and give them a call: "You're a minority law professor; I'm a minority law professor. Let's get together and talk about minority law stuff."

And then the other law professor could say, "actually, this directory is for minority recruiting. Unless you're an Ivy League law program or a high-profile legal firm looking for a diversity hire, you really shouldn't be calling me. If you're really interested in minority networking, here's some resources I recommend." And Warren would decide not to list herself after all, and pursue other networking opportunities instead.

Later that night, staring sleepily into the fridge, the other law professor might even think, "huh... If she's a minority, wouldn't she already know about her minority's interest groups and networking resources?"

And years later, we'd be reading interviews in the New York Times with Native American activists and community leaders, saying "I don't know about her ancestry, and I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, Elizabeth Warren's long involvement in the Native American community - her network of contacts and history of engagement - puts her bona fides beyond question."

Given the time frame involved, the probability of her networking attempts being discoverable by internet research is very low, I believe.

 

[theprestige]

Since the Harvard faculty involved in her hiring claim that they were unaware of her NA ancestry, and never considered it, I think you might be a bit confused on this.

I'm aware of their claim. I'm agnostic about its truth value. What's incontrovertible is that Harvard did list her as a minority professor, and Harvard Law's spokesman did publicly claim that she was a person of color. That information had to come from somewhere.

And your understanding of what networking Warren did decades ago will be 1)better than your understanding of her hire at Harvard and 2)supported by evidence? Hopefully...

My understanding of what networking Warren did is based on the reports we have of the networking Warren did. The closest thing to such a report that I've been able to find is this:

“She’s not part of the Cherokee community,” said Chad Smith, who was the principal chief of the Oklahoma-based Cherokee Nation from 1999 to 2011. “She hasn’t reached out. She hasn’t come here and participated much.”

- Boston Globe, January 19, 2018​

And this.

You guys still haven't explained how information gained after someone is hired is used for recruitment of that person.

Warren's listing in the minority directory predates her hiring by Harvard.

 

[theprestige]

If she were trying to run for office based on her bona fides as a Native American this would make a lot more sense. Maybe if she had returned to Oklahoma she would have gone in that direction, but that is not where life took her.

She's a grown-ass woman with grown-ass agency. Life didn't take her anywhere. She made choices to prioritize certain things over others. Choosing not to prioritize building her minority network, for example. Even though that was ostensibly something she wanted to do for several years.

 

[theprestige]

Just from the outset, you are not saying you have any evidence that she actually knew the directory was for minority recruiting. On that we agree.

I also think we can agree that we see this whole issue differently. I've signed up for tons of stuff over my career that should have been useful for networking but actually wasn't or I didn't actually follow through on because networking has never actually been important to my career. Networking is one of those things we are taught is important but we quickly learn isn't actually important. It is something people who aren't busy do to comfort themselves during slow times. Busy people just never follow through on networking, unless they are in sales.

All that is to say, why assume that she was lying when "just too busy" is just as likely.

"Didn't take minority networking seriously," doesn't really make her look any better, unfortunately.

And mine is still: I see no evidence of that.

That's fair. I'm not trying to press my conclusion on you. Different people are going to see this issue differently.

 

[theprestige]

Given the time frame involved, the probability of her networking attempts being discoverable by internet research is very low, I believe.

Indeed. We would have to rely on the testimony of the Native Americans with whom she's built relationships over the years.

 

[wareyin]

I'm aware of their claim. I'm agnostic about its truth value.

I see. What would it take to move you from agnostic to accepting their claim?

What's incontrovertible is that Harvard did list her as a minority professor, and Harvard Law's spokesman did publicly claim that she was a person of color. That information had to come from somewhere.

We are in agreement that during her career at Harvard, that was publicly claimed. I don't think even Warren disputes that. This is not evidence for the claim that it was known before she was hired.

My understanding of what networking Warren did is based on the reports we have of the networking Warren did. The closest thing to such a report that I've been able to find is this:

“She’s not part of the Cherokee community,” said Chad Smith, who was the principal chief of the Oklahoma-based Cherokee Nation from 1999 to 2011. “She hasn’t reached out. She hasn’t come here and participated much.”

- Boston Globe, January 19, 2018​

And this.

Your evidence that she did not network or attempt to network with other Harvard faculty with NA ancestry is that she wasn't part of the Cherokee community in Oklahoma? You do know she never claimed tribal affiliation, right?

eta: Your second source is worse than your first. She did not network with other faculty with NA Ancestry in the 90's because in 2012 she refused to meet with a group of women who were upset about her claims to be Cherokee, despite the fact that she never made that claim?

Warren's listing in the minority directory predates her hiring by Harvard.

Just to be clear, can you quote exactly what that listing says?

 

[Drewbot]

Did Warren know it was used primarily for minority recruitment?

It was the Google of that time for faculties looking for minority hires.

The former chairman of the American Association of Law Schools, David Bernstein, told the Herald that the group’s directory once served as a tip sheet for administrators. “In the old days before the Internet, you’d pull out the AALS directory and look up people,” he said. “There are schools that, if they were looking for a minority faculty member, would go to that list and might say, ‘I didn’t know Elizabeth Warren was a minority.’”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...fa5a255a9258_blog.html?utm_term=.f75ab0bcbb4c

 

[Drewbot]

Just to be clear, can you quote exactly what that listing says?

Wareyin, I think you are just mixed up in your timeline, she was listing herself in the AALS Minority Appendix during her time at Penn and Texas. She didn't stop doing it, until she was hired at Harvard full time.

Warren first listed herself as a minority in the Association of American Law Schools Directory of Faculty in 1986, the year before she joined the faculty of the University of Pennsylvania Law School. She continued to list herself as a minority until 1995, the year she accepted a tenured position at Harvard Law School.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...fa5a255a9258_blog.html?utm_term=.f75ab0bcbb4c

 

[Dr. Keith]

"Didn't take minority networking seriously," doesn't really make her look any better, unfortunately.

But, "didn't take any networking seriously" doesn't make her a liar or an outlier.

That's fair. I'm not trying to press my conclusion on you. Different people are going to see this issue differently.

Of course, I just find it odd that she is presumed guilty even though the only available evidence can be consistent with her claims and there is no available evidence that directly contradicts her claims.

 

[Dr. Keith]

She's a grown-ass woman with grown-ass agency. Life didn't take her anywhere. She made choices to prioritize certain things over others. Choosing not to prioritize building her minority network, for example. Even though that was ostensibly something she wanted to do for several years.

Right, which is why she has never tried to build her political career as a Native American. She dropped that part of her heritage and moved on. That others haven't is really quite weird.

 

[wareyin]

Wareyin, I think you are just mixed up in your timeline, she was listing herself in the AALS Minority Appendix during her time at Penn and Texas. She didn't stop doing it, until she was hired at Harvard full time.

That is not an answer to the question I asked, but since you're sure that this appendix was used for recruitment purposes, why was Harvard unaware of her listing in it? Why did Penn at the time defend hiring her (as a white woman) rather than minority applicants for the position?
You've claimed that this listing was for recruitment, but for every position she was hired, they did not use or consider it, and they hired her with no discussion or knowledge of her NA ancestry.

 

[smartcooky]

If Beto comes close to beating Cruz in Texas, I can see him making a run. I imagine it's going to be a big field of Dems including more than a couple of Septuagenarians including Sanders, Warren and Biden. I doubt Cuomo because he's hated by the left because of his shenanigans. And of course Blasio. I think Hillary will definitely try and push her way in but I think the party wants her to give it a rest and stay out. Booker and Duckworth are outside shots as well.

I've just watched Beto O'Rourke at a Town Hall in Houston on Hardball.

He really does remind me of Bobby Kennedy; speaks well and fluently, has immediate recall of facts and numbers and presents as honest and diligent..... I'm impressed.

 

[smartcooky]

I mean, she could have used the directory for networking. She wouldn't even have to list herself. She could just crack it open, find someone on the list, and give them a call: "You're a minority law professor; I'm a minority law professor. Let's get together and talk about minority law stuff."

And then the other law professor could say, "actually, this directory is for minority recruiting. Unless you're an Ivy League law program or a high-profile legal firm looking for a diversity hire, you really shouldn't be calling me. If you're really interested in minority networking, here's some resources I recommend." And Warren would decide not to list herself after all, and pursue other networking opportunities instead.

Later that night, staring sleepily into the fridge, the other law professor might even think, "huh... If she's a minority, wouldn't she already know about her minority's interest groups and networking resources?"

And years later, we'd be reading interviews in the New York Times with Native American activists and community leaders, saying "I don't know about her ancestry, and I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, Elizabeth Warren's long involvement in the Native American community - her network of contacts and history of engagement - puts her bona fides beyond question."

You're welcome.

FWIW, here's why I think Warren probably knew the directory was for minority recruiting.

First of all, the timeline. She listed herself in the directory for several years prior to getting hired by Harvard. Following her hire (and Harvard mysteriously getting the impression she was a Native American and a person of color), she stopped listing herself in the directory.

Second, her proffered explanation. She has said that she listed herself because she thought the directory was used for minority networking. But other than listing herself in the directory, she hasn't shown much interest at all in minority networking. It doesn't make sense that an intelligent law professor would list themselves expecting a certain result, and then not notice that they weren't getting the result for several years. It also doesn't make sense that taking this one ineffectual action would be the only real attempt they made to get the result they desired.

"I thought it was for networking and I didn't find out it was for recruiting until after I coincidentally got hired at Harvard (who coincidentally thought I was a minority) and I coincidentally didn't really put any effort into networking anyway" isn't a very plausible scenario, to me.

So if the question is, "did Warren know the directory was used primarily for minority recruitment?", then my answer is "probably yes".

That is an awful lot of assumptions and unsubstantiated assertions you are making there. You are assuming what you think Warren was thinking at the time she ticked a box 30 years ago; and you have zero evidence that what you are thinking is true. That's not quite as bad as Vixen who claim she knows all about what the Warren family talked about 50 years ago, but as an example of claiming unsubstantiated opinions as facts, without any evidence, its getting up there.

In any case, you still haven't accounted for the fact that those who hired her at Harvard insist that her minority status never came up when her potential employment was being discussed. Of the 31 surviving members of faculty who hired her, that were spoken to, 30 said it definitely was not discussed, and one could not remember.