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Birthright Citizenship

phiwum said:
According to the arguments around here, the relevant fact isn't the Australian birth rate, but the Australian white birth rate. Because (1) they're totally white supremacist and (2) they're letting down the race.

Funny ol' argument, that.
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Regardless, an easier path to citizenship as a means to keep up the supply of citizens (hopefully productive ones) is a good argument for retaining the law.
 
Random said:
Not quite. Back in October of 2017, the Dems were willing to provide partial funding for Trump’s Magical Racism Fence in exchange for legal protections for the Dreamers (not full citizenship though). But when they got to the final meeting to make the deal, Trump added in cutting off funding to sanctuary cities and ending the ability of naturalized citizens to sponsor family members for citizenship (Chain Migration). Dems said that this wasn’t the deal that they had agreed to and it collapsed.

Another example of our Dealmaker in Chief screwing up a deal…
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To my knowledge the only deals he manages to make is when he somehow strongarms people into doing what he wants or face dire consequences.

That's not a dealmaker. That's a bully.
 
lomiller said:
What if no one recognises the parent’s citizenship, what is the citizenship of the children then?
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Surely, that happens from time to time already, if it's not a totally negligible occurrence. Most Eastern Hemisphere countries don't allow birthright citizenship, without certain significant restrictions.d acknowledge US

Even if that were not an issue is it really ok for a country to start imposing its laws on everyone else? Eg. Country A thinks citizenship comes only from the parent’s citizenship; country B thinks it comes from where you were born. How do you reconcile these without unless Country A gets to impose laws on Country B without consent of it's voters?
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Er, sorry?

This is a non-issue. The US, for instance, doesn't acknowledge dual citizenship, but its citizens are welcome to claim dual citizenship. The US would acknowledge US citizenship, but not the citizenship of the other nation.
 
lomiller said:
Nothing says "freeing people from the being compelled" like denying them any/all protection against those who would compel them against their will…
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Most of the people who would try and compel wouldn't have citizenship, either.

US citizenship would fall to 20 million.
 
BobTheCoward said:
I would never assert that and I am the king pedant. I love pedanticism. I'm just making sure we are on the same page about it
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"Pedantry", you poser.

(Yes, yes, some may punctuate it thus: "Pedantry," you poser. This is not a convention to which I subscribe.)
 
Cavemonster said:
There is another thread about Trump's statement that he would like to end birthright citizenship via an executive order.

At least one poster expressed a desire to discuss in abstract whether repealing birthright citizenship might be a good thing outside of the context of Trump and the GOP's possible intentions.

This is the thread to do that.
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Given your desire for discussion of principles, I've seen some items at reason.com or the Volokh blog it hosts, from a generally libertarian position, being pro-immigration and denouncing the idea that executive order can affect the constitutional (and statutory) position, but disfavouring birthright citizenship to the extent it exists.
 
Bob001 said:
Recording births is generally a city or county function. Would local registrars be required to determine the parents' citizenship? Or would all births be reported to the federal government for investigation? Would someone applying for a passport have to present his parents' birth certificates as well as his own? Grandparents'? Would the legal presumption be that you are not a citizen unless you can prove otherwise? The practical implications here are just mind-boggling.
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Other countries seem to manage. Here in the UK, birth registrations are done at a local level, but the information is collated on a national level by the appropriate one of the three General Register Offices (either England & Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland). The England & Wales GRO is part of the HM Passport Office. Simply having a birth certificate doesn't confer - let alone prove - citizenship, and neither is a passport necessarily a prerequisite of proving it.
 
Hellbound said:
Can't speak for everyone, but mine's a bit more nuanced.

There's little cost to it, but little cost to changing it either, as long as other parts of law are changed to cover the gap made by simply doing away with birthright citizenship.

The problem is, we'd create perpetual non-citizens (as others have mentioned). Places that don't have birthright citizenship almost always have some modified method (such as can become a citizen at 18 if you've lived here x years as a minor, or similar) that prevents this permanent group of uncitizens. I have no issue getting rid of birthright if we implemented something similar.
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While I disagree with the 'little cost to it' portion, I wholeheartedly agree that simple removal would not be an avenue to take. Set timelines guaranteeing citizenship would have to be part of the equation to really make any sense. It would ease strain on social services costs by delaying immediate use, possibly deterring some irresponsible child bearing decisions.
 
Thermal said:
I know. It's the mechanism that stuck me as odd. When the 14th amendment's birthright provision was set up, it was with a mind to confer citizenship to former slaves, IIRC. That provision is certainly obsolete, no?
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Measles isn’t a problem any more, does that mean we should no longer vaccinate against it?
 
phiwum said:
Surely, that happens from time to time already, if it's not a totally negligible occurrence. Most Eastern Hemisphere countries don't allow birthright citizenship, without certain significant restrictions.d acknowledge US
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It does happen. In Europe local provisions allowing for citizenship and EU provisions regarding free movement address most but not all of the issue. In other places it results in terrible suffering and even genocide. Again, the fact that it happens now doesn’t mean it’s not a problem.
phiwum said:
This is a non-issue. The US, for instance, doesn't acknowledge dual citizenship, but its citizens are welcome to claim dual citizenship. The US would acknowledge US citizenship, but not the citizenship of the other nation.
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Eh? What does dual citizenship have to do with it? If the US no longer recognises children born in the US as citizens, but their parents country says they weren’t born here so they are not citizens where are you going to deport them to?
 
lomiller said:
If the US no longer recognises children born in the US as citizens, but their parents country says they weren’t born here so they are not citizens where are you going to deport them to?
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Gitmo?
 
lomiller said:
So you support creating an official class of people who have no citizenship and who’s descendants will never be citizens of any country and can be expelled/exploited at will?
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Nope. We have citizens without states now, though not many. The children could be in theory appointed citizenship in a similar manner as refugees. Didn't say anything about exploiting at will, btw. Not my fetish. Yours?

Does that make it less of a problem?
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No, but you asked me how to justify a theoretical problem...by presenting the problem we already have and would have in my or any model.
 
lomiller said:
Measles isn’t a problem any more, does that mean we should no longer vaccinate against it?
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Your analogy suggests we should provide a way to confer citizenship on American freed slaves again. How are you viewing our future, now?
 
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